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where do you folks get lens reviews?

R

RoyGBiv

Guest
So, where do you folks get your lens reviews? I know DPR has some, and I've found SLRgear.com's reviews. What other options have you found that gave good, thorough, quantified, unbiased analysis?


Edit: just a random comment...I'm rather surprised to see a site where there's more activity in the 4/3rds, Leica and medium format forums than the canikon forums. Wow!
 

m3photo

New member
Re: lens reviews

So, where do you folks get your lens reviews?
I suggest starting here for a complete list:
http://www.four-thirds.org/en/fourthirds/lense.html
Fred Miranda's site is quite good but it's more for Canon and Nikon (I guess if you posted your question here they're not the ones you're after):
http://www.fredmiranda.com/

As far as all the other lenses you can fit on these cameras, have a good browse through these forums - there are opinions for all ...
 

kwalsh

New member
There is photozone.de which is great for many lenses. Unfortunately their tests are essentially useless for m43 lenses because they go out of their way to specifically do all their tests with out any of the intended lens corrections applied. It really is beyond stupid, sort of like writing a review of Diesel car after putting regular unleaded gasoline in it. All their other tests are well done though.

Ken
 

pellicle

New member
I can't understand this

There is photozone.de which is great for many lenses. Unfortunately their tests are essentially useless for m43 lenses because they go out of their way to specifically do all their tests with out any of the intended lens corrections applied. It really is beyond stupid
so you are saying you would prefer to see the books cooked?

you know, you can always improve the image made by the lens with stuff yourself (PTLens for instance) but if you get the data cooked well ... you don't know much about the lens then do you?

perhaps you could explain why seeing the results of software corrected issues being more 'complete'
 

kwalsh

New member
Sigh, endless debate repeated a thousand times a thousand places. I'm not sure what it is going to add to discuss it yet again... But fine, you asked some specific questions.

I can't understand this

so you are saying you would prefer to see the books cooked?
Problem one, right there, you interpret using a imaging system as it was intended to be used from the start as "cooked". So I know right away whatever I tell you won't change your mind. I will go back to the Diesel car analogy - if Car and Driver tested a Diesel Volkswagon Golf with unleaded gas their results really wouldn't be useful to their readers now would they?

you know, you can always improve the image made by the lens with stuff yourself (PTLens for instance) but if you get the data cooked well ... you don't know much about the lens then do you?
If you ignore the designers recommended processing you know even less about its performance, it is like ripping one optical element out of a lens and then testing it and trying to draw conclusions. This digital processing was part of the optics design from the start and is built in and unchangeable in the camera JPG pipeline as well as all commercial RAW converters, you rip it out you are essentially ripping out part of the optics design. It really is like prying the front element off a lens. Your test is now a classic case of garbage in garbage out. It is like the RF front end of cellphone - the analog section and filters were designed to complement the follow up DSP, testing one without the other leads to erroneous results, in fact your cellphone won't work at all.

perhaps you could explain why seeing the results of software corrected issues being more 'complete'
Because that was how the system was designed to be used from the very start. Optics design is a game of trade-offs. In film days you could only solve the problem optically. With DSLRs using OVFs you probably better get distortion corrected in the optics or framing is going to be a problem, but you can certainly could leave lateral CA to digital processing and you'd now have more design trade space to optimize other parameters. With an EVF you can leave distortion to post processing.

Now, what if I *don't* apply the corrections? Well, I measure more CA than the designer intended or most any user will actually see, I measure more distortion than the designer intended or most any user will actually see, I measure *higher* edge sharpness than the designer intended or most any user will see, and in many cases I measure *wider* FOV than the designer intended or most any user will see. All four of these test results are corrupted by not applying the corrections, two results get worse and two get better and these results are *not* what any user using industry leading commercial RAW converters or camera JPEGs will actually see in use nor are they what the designer optimized the lens for. So not how it was designed or used. How on earth is that useful or complete? The only people it is useful to is a tiny fraction of people who use RAW converters that don't support the corrections and then furthermore opt not to correct in PTLens afterwards - that is people who don't understand how the system was designed to work or actively choose not to use it that way. Oh, and people who like pretty block diagrams with everything neatly tucked in labeled boxes instead of being where optimal performance is achieved.

There, done, I see no point in discussing further. You can find endless discussions of this other places which always fall into two camps. Those who understand and accept that micro-four-thirds has taken a systems approach to their optics design, partitioning the problem into those elements best handled in the optics domain and those best handled in the digital domain. And then there are those who don't for a wide variety of difficult to fathom reasons.

Ken

P.S. Apologies if this sounds overly huffy. I spend so much of my career making sure people specify and test complicated processing systems properly that it gets tiresome and I tend to project that frustration on to this tiny aspect of the same thing that has shown up in my hobby! No offense please! The problem is on my end!
 
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madmaxmedia

New member
I would always prefer to see both corrected and uncorrected data/images from 4/3 lenses. I think both are relevant in real-world usage, and both are also relevant when comparing to other lenses.)
 

kwalsh

New member
I would always prefer to see both corrected and uncorrected data/images from 4/3 lenses.
Well, no argument from me there. Especially CA which Oly cameras don't correct. In reality CA really isn't the problem case. The CA on all the lenses is very mild and folks are used to what minor corrections can do. It is the lack of distortion correction in the testing methodology that I object to. It gives erroneous edge sharpness results from real world use.

Ken
 

Bob

Administrator
Staff member
I prefer to do my own lens reviews.
Too often I find something different in my hands and to my eyes compared to other reviewers.
-bob
 

madmaxmedia

New member
LOL, it was an obvious statement wasn't it? ;) But to me you really need to have both, I am not too religious about the corrected vs. uncorrected debate. I guess I am religious about needing both in a comprehensive review. :)

Although if I could only have one, I might possibly side with seeing the corrected data for practical reasons. I understand you can PP output from any lens, but I am lazy to do extensive PP in all my shots (besides basic ACR sliders), and assume that Panasonic engineers have done a thorough job in optimizing overall IQ with their correction algorithms. I think if a lens has really excessive faults such as bad distortion, then the overall IQ is going necessarily to suffer anyway via software correction side effects.

Well, no argument from me there. Especially CA which Oly cameras don't correct. In reality CA really isn't the problem case. The CA on all the lenses is very mild and folks are used to what minor corrections can do. It is the lack of distortion correction in the testing methodology that I object to. It gives erroneous edge sharpness results from real world use.

Ken
 

kevinparis

Member
I doubt if there are any truly bad lenses out there.. and no lens test i have ever seen actually reflect real world usage... which of course will vary with your own personal usage

we all want the best... but some nerd taking photos of brick walls shouldn't be a criteria to working out what is best for you.

death to lens tests

K
 
V

Vivek

Guest
Kevin, I thought photography itself is a geeky activity. Brick wall lens testers fit right in. :D
 
R

RoyGBiv

Guest
Re: lens reviews

I suggest starting here for a complete list:
http://www.four-thirds.org/en/fourthirds/lense.html
Fred Miranda's site is quite good but it's more for Canon and Nikon (I guess if you posted your question here they're not the ones you're after):
http://www.fredmiranda.com/

As far as all the other lenses you can fit on these cameras, have a good browse through these forums - there are opinions for all ...
Thanks for the suggestions folks...and the color commentary. :)

You're right...canon& nikon are quite well covered by the sites I've found. I'm looking for more coverage on less common lenses...zeiss, voigtlander, sigma, pentax, etc.

I actually posted here because it was one of the most posted subforums and with the micro4/3 system being so adapter-friendly, I figure there'd be quite a few people involved who're fairly experimental with their lenses.

Besides...the leica & medium format subforums (more posts in them)...definitely not able to afford either of those lenses anytime soon. :)
 

pellicle

New member
Ken

Sigh, endless debate repeated a thousand times a thousand places. ...
Ken

P.S. Apologies if this sounds overly huffy. I spend so much of my career making sure people specify and test complicated processing systems properly ...
No offense please! The problem is on my end!
none taken but I agree with your summary. I only asked some questions (which you answered all be it with a dash of vitriol). Thanks for your answer however.

I too am engaged professionally in areas where issues such as scope creep, misunderstanding software issues, and systems design and testing has been my gig for over 15 years. I'm now managing a project for digital delivery in a library environment with people who just don't get digital issues (including the legal intellectual property people). However I try really hard to not infer too many assumptions into what the questioner assumes and knows and I am a little driven to get to the bottom of the real issues.

I see this is something which you are not interested in discussing so I'll leave it here and thank you for your detailed reply.

PS Ken

if you really don't like getting involved in disucssions as you claim why would you post something as provocative as:
It really is beyond stupid, sort of like writing a review of Diesel car after putting regular unleaded gasoline in it.
and not expect some reasonable interested person to ask you to explain your view and want to explore the idea and assumptions further? I note it is interesting you do perform "un cooked" analysis while decrying it as stupid. As it happens I am a defender of making mathematical corrections to the output of systems for the purposes of making the string of compromise in design produce a better final result. Aside from Sashimi I happen to eat my food cooked.
 
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There is photozone.de which is great for many lenses. Unfortunately their tests are essentially useless for m43 lenses because they go out of their way to specifically do all their tests with out any of the intended lens corrections applied. It really is beyond stupid, sort of like writing a review of Diesel car after putting regular unleaded gasoline in it. All their other tests are well done though.

Ken
Ken, I am wondering where you're getting this impression. Photozone tests both the uncorrected RAW and corrrected camera output, and gives many sample photos with the corrections applied. Then they give a fair impression of both the inherent optical quality and real-world results. For instance, here's the wrap-up of the 14-45 lens:

In terms of sheer optical performance the Panasonic Lumix G Vario 14-45mm f/3.5-5.6 ASPH OIS is not a great lens. However, when looking at the auto-corrected results, and this is where it counts from a user perspective, it's capable of producing quite good results. The center resolution is generally on a excellent level straight from the max. aperture setting. The border quality is still relatively decent between 14mm and 25mm although it's nothing to rave about. At 45mm we've an evenly high quality across the frame. The vignetting is still comparatively pronounced at 14mm @ f/3.5 despite the auto-correction. However, it's not really an issue anymore at other settings. The build quality of the lens is very decent especially for a kit lens. The AF works basically silent, it's surprisingly fast and highly accurate (also thanks to the G1's contrast AF). The "Mega OIS" (image stabilizer) can give you an extra potential equivalent to 2-3 f-stops in field conditions.
This is absolutely useful information. The only thing they don't do is give m4/3 lenses their usual "star" ratings. I'd rather they do so, but calling their tests useless seems unfair...the above would seem to me to be a highly nuanced, fair assessment, and the other m4/3 reviews are similar.

What specifically bothers you about them? They really do give you information about both the uncorrected and corrected images.
 
V

Vivek

Guest
If it is the "system" performance, all them suck because of slow focus and shutter lag (including focus hunt).

Had I not started with manual focus lenses, I would not have bother with the G1 for this long.

It is the liveview, TFT and the EVF that are good about the "system".
 
I dunno, I think the lenses render well and focus quickly. As a guy who usually uses manual focus rangefinder cameras, the G1 and GF1 seem like little marvels to me. The quarter-second shutter lag isn't ideal, but has not been a problem--the total time focusing and shooting is comparable to the total time focusing and shooting with an M7. Leica wins when it comes to shooting street using hyperfocal distance, but that's to be expected.

"All of them suck" seems a pretty extreme overstatement.
 

Godfrey

Well-known member
I prefer to do my own lens reviews.
Too often I find something different in my hands and to my eyes compared to other reviewers.
I agree 100%. Some of the most satisfying, best photographs I've produced in the past 40 years were made with lenses that the official pundits condemned as equivalent to a Coke bottle bottom.

It's better to concentrate on making photographs than worrying whether some geek with a resolution chart has myopia. :)
 

Rich M

Member
It's better to concentrate on making photographs than worrying whether some geek with a resolution chart has myopia. :)
I agree wholeheartedly. One of these afternoons, I am going to start a thread on "intimacy"......no, not the wife or GF.......but that relationship that one has with his or her favorite lens. Because to me, it goes beyond the tech specs into the realm of those intrinsic qualities that are difficult to quantify.

It somehow becomes something greater than X elements of glass and Y aperture blades.

It has gotten to the point for me that if I have a lens on my camera that I am in love with, and I see a review of it, I refuse to read it.

Just don't care at that point.

Respectfully......Richard
 

kwalsh

New member
if you really don't like getting involved in disucssions as you claim why would you post something as provocative as:

and not expect some reasonable interested person to ask you to explain your view and want to explore the idea and assumptions further?
Very, very fair comment/criticism there. Mea culpa!

Ken, I am wondering where you're getting this impression...

What specifically bothers you about them? They really do give you information about both the uncorrected and corrected images.
OK, now I am completely and totally perplexed - or else suffering some sort of early onset dementia. As I recall (perhaps wrongly) photozone first tested and posted reviews with their normal processing chain which did apply corrections. Then I'm almost 100% certain they pulled the reviews and used another RAW converter to do the tests with no corrections - which I thought was really useless and I wrote them off. Well now it appears they have put the test data for corrections back up and put in textual comments about how extreme the corrections may or may not be. Which I think is the best of both worlds! Hurray!

Good news, the photozone tests seem really useful again. Bad news (but altogether too frequent news) I look like a moron...

Ken
 
R

retnull

Guest
I agree wholeheartedly. One of these afternoons, I am going to start a thread on "intimacy"......no, not the wife or GF.......but that relationship that one has with his or her favorite lens. Because to me, it goes beyond the tech specs into the realm of those intrinsic qualities that are difficult to quantify.
Yes, there is a realm of true-lens-love that extends beyond rationality. It is almost a prosthetic relation: I love the way the lens sees, so much so that I want to see the world that way myself, as if the lens were my own eyes.

</half-joking>
Kurt
 
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