The main flaws of all micro 4/3rds cameras

[nugat]

The only two flaws I see with this format are:

1. Sensors don't lend themselves for high ISO performance
2. Sensor size makes wide angle shots more difficult

Other than that, I love everything about my G1/GH1. Frankly I don't need a more compact version, and I'm doing fine without the GF1/EP-1 format, so the fact that 'we need' something that compact is certainly debatable.

I'd be very happy with an improved sensor that could handle higher ISO (at least up to 3200, but maybe 6400, with the same quality it handles 800 now) - that to me would be the perfect m4/3 camera. I don't think that's too far off into the future, and it seems the format has been adopted widely enough to interest manufacturers in continuing development on it.

You will not wait long. This year we'll see a back-illuminated 4/3 sensor. (That technology might be very late or never reach the full frame). In a nutshell the sensitivity/DR should go up 1 stop from that alone. From improved processing another stop. So 3200ISO will look today's 800.

 

[slau]

So 3200ISO will look today's 800.

If that is the case, the G1/GH1 will be a lot useful for indoor shooting. Currently my 'ISO cutoff' for my G1/GH1 is ISO800, and anything above ISO800 is kind of reserved for 'emergency'. Hope that is coming soon.

 

[meilicke]

Body color options like Pentax in Japan: http://www.psfk.com/2009/12/100-different-color-styles-with-the-pentax-k-x-series.html
:bugeyes:

 

[swandy]

Very interesting thread. Coming from the Olympus side of the "marriage" (first the EP1 and now the EP2), my main gripe is the AF - seems that Panasonic is a bit ahead of Oly in that department (how much is up to conjecture, but there is certainly a difference).

I prefer the form factor of the EP1/2 and GH1. If I wanted a small DSLR style camera I would get a small DSLR. I like the addition of the EVF on the EP2 for those times I want to use older manual focus lenses (and my Lensbaby), otherwise I can deal with the LCD. Certainly don't feel I need a bigger grip on a camera this size and the batteries are fine.

What I would like is a way to control the remote flashes - guess a pop-up flash would help here?

As far as noise and DR - I am very happy with what I have seen out of the EP2. Certainly better than I had with even my E30. Obviously not as good as the Can/Nik full framers - but I never expected it to be. But I read these threads about "noise problems" (being a long-time Olympus 4/3 user I have read many) and I think, "I guess these people never used ISO400 film? Now THAT was grainy!!!" (We didn't call it noise back then!)
Just some random thoughts.
Steve

 

[Mingjai]

I have never counted the number of shots I get but I sure get more on my S5 with 4 AAs than on the G1. I do take exception to your assertion that the size would increase dramatically to include 4 AAs in the G1. As you can see in the pic below there is only a size differential of 6mm between the S5 & the G1. The S5 is much nicer in the hand, particularly with a longer lens.

As for shelf life of AAs, eneloop batteries from Sanyo hold full charge for months.

And yet the S5 definitely feels much heavier and chunkier than the G1. I prefer the G1 for feel. From my experience, the G1 has a better shooting life than the S5, and I used Sanyo eneloops and rarely used the LCD.

 

[jerryk]

My biggest issue is with the jpegs image quality and default settings for raw images on the gf1. Both are poor and I have to post process each image. However, once the raw images are processed they really sing. I think the resultant image quality I get from the GF1 is as good as I get from a 1DMK3. It just takes more work.

 

[RichA]

I agree, Rich. I shot the G1/GF1 side by side with a Fuji S5 on a recent photo tour. The Fuji did have more DR, but the G1/GF1 held their own. I have the histogram down in the lower corner of my screen and check it before I click the shutter. I have very few shots ruined by blown highlights.

I once did a simple test, using an S5, my D300 and an Olympus E-510. I shot a ceiling light. The S5 was the only one that could render the scene like my eye saw it. The other two blew out the details on the light shade completely. The E-510 was the worst. This is why I hope Fuji does release a micro 4/3rds or something like it.

 

[RichA]

If that is the case, the G1/GH1 will be a lot useful for indoor shooting. Currently my 'ISO cutoff' for my G1/GH1 is ISO800, and anything above ISO800 is kind of reserved for 'emergency'. Hope that is coming soon.

In a way I hope it doesn't arrive. I don't want to see some reduced resolution body (at all ISOs) just to improve on high ISO noise. Keep the light AA filter and keep the noise at high ISO if it preserves the spectacular resolution of these cameras.

 

[pellicle]

Hi

I prefer the form factor of the EP1/2 and GH1. If I wanted a small DSLR style camera I would get a small DSLR.

I used to feel exactly that way before I had my G1. I bought it mainly for reasons of interchangable lenses and the AF features, but quickly realised how good the EVF was (everything I'd seen before was woeful). After picking up a 4/3 SLR I just laughed at how tiny the optical viewfinder was. Since I had already been complaining about the APS-C sized finders on my 10D / 20D compared to the film EOS cameras I owned (and a mates 5D) I could not use the viewfinder on a 4/3 SLR for anything more than pointing the camera. Critical focus is really not possible.

of course each has their own preference but after having had SLR style use as well as having the zoom for fine tune of focus on occasion (strangely I don't need it as much as I thought) its just all good. Now for me the only use of an SLR is for high speed object tracking and continuous AF on the tracked subject.

not sure if you've tried the G1 but if haven't it might grow on you

 

[compositor20]

the m43 really need the fuji sensor it would make them breath against the aps crowd a 24megapixel or a 20 megapixel m43 sensor with a 12 or 10mp DR that has at least 12EV and a a high iso mode that is as good at iso 3200 as the e-p1 (the best of the m43) is at iso1600 and iso6400 as good as iso3200 is on e-p1 but with the absence of grain of the gh1

the it needs HD or it wont sell 1080p at 24fps and 30fps (the gh1 successor should have 1080p at 60fps as cpu intense as it may become)

and they should make a atialaising filter like the e-p1 at least or beetween gf-1 and e-p1 (gf-1 has serious false colour and maze artefacts that make high iso look worse

 

[pellicle]

and they should make a atialaising filter like the e-p1 at least or beetween gf-1 and e-p1 (gf-1 has serious false colour and maze artefacts that make high iso look worse

I understood that the maze artifacts were from an issue related to demosiac not anti-alias. They appear even in blue skies which have no details to alias.

For instance dcraw has the -f option to:

Interpolate RGB as four colors. Use this if the output shows false 2x2 meshes with VNG or mazes with AHD.

 

[bavanor]

I can't believe no one has mentioned my top 2 things that need to be fixed on the G1.

1. Make the Scene wheel stay in place. Yaargh, I don't know how many times I have brought the camera up to my eye to take a photo to have it look completely wonky. The reason, because the scene/mode dial has changed from M to CUST or something else. Every time this happens I am thrown off. Please make it so you have to push a center button to move the dial or make it a lot stiffer.

2. Similar to one but with the diopter for the evf. I find it has been moved somehow all the time. Which is very problematic for me because I do a lot of manual focusing. And to top it off there is no marking on the diopter for the zeroed out position. Yaargh again. I don't know how many times I have had huge troubles to get something in focus only to find out the diopter dial has moved, making everything look out of focus. At least I can use the fold out screen to help make sure the diopter is in the right position with the EVF. Otherwise I wouldn't know when it was right.

For me these are the two items that need to be fixed.

 

[Diane B]

So far the first has never been an issue for me at all. The front dial is the one that I hope they change in G2 (or whatever)making less likely to easily be turned--maybe placing it as on the GF1 which solved it for me in that body. My mode dial on my G1 is not too easily moveable. They could take the film mode button off and leave only the quick menu button and maybe put the dial on the top. I like the GF1's button arrangements better than the G1

For number two, this isn't perhaps the best solution (not really a solution, just an 'aid'). I check the settings, particularly the bottom ones on the screen, and make sure they are sharp for my eyes each time I bring it to my eye since I MF a lot also.

Diane

I can't believe no one has mentioned my top 2 things that need to be fixed on the G1.

1. Make the Scene wheel stay in place. Yaargh, I don't know how many times I have brought the camera up to my eye to take a photo to have it look completely wonky. The reason, because the scene/mode dial has changed from M to CUST or something else. Every time this happens I am thrown off. Please make it so you have to push a center button to move the dial or make it a lot stiffer.

2. Similar to one but with the diopter for the evf. I find it has been moved somehow all the time. Which is very problematic for me because I do a lot of manual focusing. And to top it off there is no marking on the diopter for the zeroed out position. Yaargh again. I don't know how many times I have had huge troubles to get something in focus only to find out the diopter dial has moved, making everything look out of focus. At least I can use the fold out screen to help make sure the diopter is in the right position with the EVF. Otherwise I wouldn't know when it was right.

For me these are the two items that need to be fixed.

 

[henningw]

I would like my next µ4/3 camera to be similar to the G1 as well. I wouldn't mind the EVF to be moved to the left but if they decide to keep the basic form that's fine with me as well.

But, there are several details I want Panasonic, or Olympus, or Fuji (or anyone else) to improve on compared to the G1:

1) Noise. The sensor is small and I guess we all have decided to live with the noise levels. I hope they improve. Above all I hope the blotchy ugly sort of noise in shadow areas will become more film-like (in lack of a better word)

2) A slightly bigger grip. It couldn't possible hurt anyone.

3) Another wheel, at the back of the camera. I don't like the current solution with one wheel doing several things at all

4) Move the front wheel. One can adopt, I know. But why not move it to the top of the grip instead?

5) The flash... please make the flash work with legacy lenses. The current situations is simply stupid.

6) Shorter synch time for flashes. The D70 was made several years ago and...

7) Shorter shutter times. There is nothing wrong with 1/8000.

8) ISO 50 and perhaps even ISO 25. Not for general use but it can be a godsend.

9) A one push manual focusing function. Thank you.

10) An option with 2x or 3x enlarged image when focusing manually. Sometimes 5x is a bit much

11) IBIS - provided it can be turned off, guaranteed to keep the sensor completely still

12) Tougher build, including weather sealing

13) IR remote

14) Improved AF if that is possible

15) Shorter viewfinder black-out between shots

16) A new menu system (similar to current Canon versions?)

17) Electronic level thingie, and an orientation sensor in body

18) One or two buttons totally customable (or similar solution)

19) HDR-function, JPG and raw in-camera and also a more customable bracketing function

20) Averaging function, JPG and raw in-camera

This would probably make the camera a bit bigger. I see no problem with that. Smaller options are available for those liking that.

I have already posted what I think about lenses. Not many liked those ideas. So, I guess these ideas will be rejected as well.

Feel free to post anything I forgot and everything I never came to think of, and that I am an idiot wishing for something nobody else wants to have.

Cheers,

/Jonas

Just showing that opinions on these things can vary a lot, I would not want items 2, 3, and 4 at all. I like it the way it is. Also the menu system is fine with me, even though I use FF Canons and other digital systems as well.

Weather sealing would be great, but not at the expense of a) noticeable increase in size and b) need for new lenses. the latter would certainly be needed, as the extending while zooming lenses are largely unsealable. That would by necessity make them larger.

25 and 50 ISO would be compromised ISO's with lower dynamic range. I have that on some cameras, and IMHO it's pointless. Use ND.

Better burst capability, including a larger buffer would be extremely welcome, as would faster AF and shorter blackout.

Lower noise and greater dynamic range are always welcome. Fuji shows the way.

In body electronic level, orientation sensor and stabilisation would all be great, but in my experience long teles do better with lens stabilisation, so keep that.

One button manual focus would certainly be great; the implementation for non-AF lenses on the GF-1 works well but needs to be expanded somehow to AF lenses.

The other things on your list are not as interesting to me, but are obviously important to some.

If I could have just one improvement, it would definitely be expanded dynamic range. Just can't have enough of that.

While the bodies need improvements, it's the lens range that REALLY needs improvements.

 

[Diane B]

I'm not sure I understand your first point. To use MF assist with AF lenses, I just touch the focus ring while I hold down the shutter button--the magnified version pops up and I can tweak focusing. If I just want to MF, I turn the focus dial to MF and then just touch the focusing ring. But--as I said, I may not have understood your thought.

I probably agree about the DR if I could only have one improvement. And--additions to the lenses are certainly needed, but I can live with what we have for now--plus my MFs.

Diane

One button manual focus would certainly be great; the implementation for non-AF lenses on the GF-1 works well but needs to be expanded somehow to AF lenses.


If I could have just one improvement, it would definitely be expanded dynamic range. Just can't have enough of that.

While the bodies need improvements, it's the lens range that REALLY needs improvements.

 

[henningw]

I'm not sure I understand your first point. To use MF assist with AF lenses, I just touch the focus ring while I hold down the shutter button--the magnified version pops up and I can tweak focusing. If I just want to MF, I turn the focus dial to MF and then just touch the focusing ring. But--as I said, I may not have understood your thought.

I probably agree about the DR if I could only have one improvement. And--additions to the lenses are certainly needed, but I can live with what we have for now--plus my MFs.

Diane

I certainly wasn't clear. The problem for me is that as it is implemented now, I can't stand the setup where it goes into magnified manual mode as soon as you touch the focussing ring. It drives me crazy.

What I would like is a one-button way to get into manual focussing when the dial is still set to AF so that you can override the AF when it does stupid things but have the choice of whether or not it magnifies, and then after that shot goes back to AF. This is probably one of those things that some people would like and others prefer the current method.

Henning

 

[Diane B]

I certainly wasn't clear. The problem for me is that as it is implemented now, I can't stand the setup where it goes into magnified manual mode as soon as you touch the focussing ring. It drives me crazy.

What I would like is a one-button way to get into manual focussing when the dial is still set to AF so that you can override the AF when it does stupid things but have the choice of whether or not it magnifies, and then after that shot goes back to AF. This is probably one of those things that some people would like and others prefer the current method.

Henning

Gotcha'. Well, I agree, sometimes it drives me nuts too LOL. AND--I would like to be able to get back to the image from MF assist (with AF lenses) without having to use the shutter button (which then makes one use the AF again LOL). Jono brought this up before--and he had come up with a workaround so I'll have to go back and find that thread--or if anyone else has some solution.

Diane

 

[bavanor]

Thanks Diane, that is a good idea. I haven't thought of doing that, just too focused (or should I say unfocused) on why I can't manually focus correctly. Hah, that is a mouthful of a sentence.

I will try and look at the camera display in the EVF next time I have to adjust the diopter. (you know I am doing this right now, as I am writing this post

 

[ustein]

I certainly wasn't clear. The problem for me is that as it is implemented now, I can't stand the setup where it goes into magnified manual mode as soon as you touch the focussing ring. It drives me crazy.

What I would like is a one-button way to get into manual focussing when the dial is still set to AF so that you can override the AF when it does stupid things but have the choice of whether or not it magnifies, and then after that shot goes back to AF. This is probably one of those things that some people would like and others prefer the current method.

Henning

Yes, count me in on that.