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Are there any new m4/3rds cams with real improvements in sight?

Godfrey

Well-known member
I think there's some value to speculative threads like this. For me personally, it sets a stake in the ground regarding the features that would make me want to upgrade, so when to final product does come out I'm more prepared to make a buy/wait decision. It certainly gives me something to look forward to, and to perhaps get excited over possibly getting it.

I suppose there's also an off-chance that someone at Panasonic/Olympus is listening, and thus there might be some influence over the direction of at least the marketing, and perhaps even actual camera features as they finalize the product.

If nothing else, it's fun =).
I always have my list of "what I'd pay real money for" features that I look for whenever equipment is announced ... I don't need a thread on a forum to figure that out. Considering what I already have

- more robust build quality with weather sealing
- larger raw buffer
- full support of all FourThirds SLR lenses (EX25, EC14, EC20 are the current omissions)
- a more robust auto-flash system with wireless RF triggering

are the big items. More sensitivity with lower noise? ... yeah, always nice, but it's rare I need it. 12Mpixel is fine for the work I'm doing now too. Faster AF? ... well, for me AF is a convenience, I rarely count on it. Nice when it works at all.

Otherwise, I don't really see the need to become excited about 'what to buy next'. For the most part, what I've already got isn't being exploited as much as it could be so
'what to buy next' is just an exercise to incite fantasy appetites for things which are designed to empty my wallet. This is what what marketing departments love to do with customers: make them consumers rather than photographers.


..."Equipment so often gets in the way of Photography." ...
 

photoSmart42

New member
I always have my list of "what I'd pay real money for" features that I look for whenever equipment is announced ... I don't need a thread on a forum to figure that out.
I'm simply sharing my personal list of "what I'd pay real money for" in terms of a next generation camera it if came out. I don't need a forum to help me figure that out either at this point, but if nobody was willing to share their own opinions and experiences we wouldn't have much of a forum, right?
 
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Vivek

Guest
This the "ultimate" wish of any photo gear buyer. Where to find "not so real money" to buy photo gear.

Couple of possibilities spring to mind- start a blog and add advertisements or better yet start a forum and start selling gear advertisements through it to finance the gear purchases?
 

Y.B.Hudson III

New member
Olympus m/4/3...Toys...er ... a clip on viewfinder that costs almost the price of the camera body, has no locking mechanism (easily knocked off). A slow, noisy focusing lens...but of course pros Video~graphers don't auto focus... But it is made by a real camera company...your right there, Kevin...:)*



* in fairness, I'll say I do own both an EPL1 and G2... the olympus is painfully clumbsy to use in the field (with MFLs), compared to the G2.
 
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Godfrey

Well-known member
I'm simply sharing my personal list of "what I'd pay real money for" in terms of a next generation camera it if came out. ...
I just did.

I'd much rather have forum discussions where we talked about ways and means of using the equipment we have rather than pondering what to buy next, or what we just bought, or complaining about what we just bought because the newer one is now available.

A forum where we enjoyed aesthetic discussions about our photographs, not in interminable "fun with" threads (although they're nice and have their place) but in appropriately lengthy discussion threads concentrating on a single or group of photographs made by a particular photographer with a particular intent. Where the art and craft of photographic endeavor was the key thing, not what the latest gizmo brought.

I can think of a dozen or more things I'd rather discuss in a photography forum, even an equipment forum, rather than the usual "which one should I buy", "what I got isn't doing what I want", and "what do I want next" topics.

=8-0

Am I in a crabby mood or what? ];-) "don't mind me, I'm just annoyed today."

... went through my office and found I had frickin' SEVEN Minolta 16 cameras hiding in a drawer. I don't even remember when or where I acquired the darn things! I want to get RID of all this accreted junk! ... Anyone want to play with a Minolta 16? I've got a film cassette for all but one of the cameras. $18 apiece, including first class shipping. Help me, please ... !
 
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Vivek

Guest
Actually, I'm working on that as we [speak]. :D
Let us know how that goes. I think in addition to what to buy and how to use a piece of equipment, "how to find unreal money to finance gear acquisition" is also is an important aspect (probably the most important aspect).:ROTFL:
 
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PeterLeyssens

Guest
I would definitely prefer a camera that has no EVF built in: I don't want to handle bulk if I don't always require it. My experience with the LX3 has convinced me an LCD is very practical most of the time, but that a viewfinder can help in some specific cases. Same goes for flash: kick it out, I don't want to lug it around when I don't use it.

For me, the main problem with all current digital cameras is that they have a user interface that works like teletext or old teletype computer applications. If you grab your good old analogue, fully mechanical SLR, you will instantly understand what I mean: there's a handful of buttons and each one does what it needs to do in nearly the most simple way possible. Comparing that to the 17-button-press-for-this-then-3-clicks-here-and-we're-almost-there kind of UI now, it's clear that some improvement should be possible. Nokia's menu system was considered to be very user friendly until the iPhone came out. We need a similar revolution back to controls that focus on what the machine will be used for.


Peter.
 

Terry

New member
For me, the main problem with all current digital cameras is that they have a user interface that works like teletext or old teletype computer applications. If you grab your good old analogue, fully mechanical SLR, you will instantly understand what I mean: there's a handful of buttons and each one does what it needs to do in nearly the most simple way possible. Comparing that to the 17-button-press-for-this-then-3-clicks-here-and-we're-almost-there kind of UI now, it's clear that some improvement should be possible. Nokia's menu system was considered to be very user friendly until the iPhone came out. We need a similar revolution back to controls that focus on what the machine will be used for.


Peter.
Well that is the direction that Sony tried to take and they are getting skewered in reviews for their first attempt.
 

woodmancy

Subscriber Member
I would definitely prefer a camera that has no EVF built in: I don't want to handle bulk if I don't always require it. My experience with the LX3 has convinced me an LCD is very practical most of the time, but that a viewfinder can help in some specific cases. Same goes for flash: kick it out, I don't want to lug it around when I don't use it.

For me, the main problem with all current digital cameras is that they have a user interface that works like teletext or old teletype computer applications. If you grab your good old analogue, fully mechanical SLR, you will instantly understand what I mean: there's a handful of buttons and each one does what it needs to do in nearly the most simple way possible. Comparing that to the 17-button-press-for-this-then-3-clicks-here-and-we're-almost-there kind of UI now, it's clear that some improvement should be possible. Nokia's menu system was considered to be very user friendly until the iPhone came out. We need a similar revolution back to controls that focus on what the machine will be used for.


Peter.
Have you tried Ricoh cameras (GRD, GX, GXR). They have a UI and enough customizable buttons to create the usability you are looking for. The GXR will offer the most flexibility in lenses and sensors for the future.

Keith
 

Godfrey

Well-known member
... For me, the main problem with all current digital cameras is that they have a user interface that works like teletext or old teletype computer applications. If you grab your good old analogue, fully mechanical SLR, you will instantly understand what I mean: there's a handful of buttons and each one does what it needs to do in nearly the most simple way possible. Comparing that to the 17-button-press-for-this-then-3-clicks-here-and-we're-almost-there kind of UI now, it's clear that some improvement should be possible. Nokia's menu system was considered to be very user friendly until the iPhone came out. We need a similar revolution back to controls that focus on what the machine will be used for.
This is a common complaint and it's mostly just another fantasy as we reminisce fondly for the simpler cameras and simpler times of the past, and miss our photographic youth.

Most cameras nowadays have a complex of controls needed to configure and tailor their body operations and exposure system to your likings and, even more so, to configure their image processing systems for the output of JPEG images. Old mechanical cameras like a Nikon FM didn't have image processing systems, customizable operation settings, or configurable exposure systems. You can't do that kind of configurations setup with three knobs like you could when setting aperture, shutter and focus. Old mechanical cameras (thinking of the FM again) often needed only seven more controls ... set film speed, shutter release, film wind, declutch film drive, rewind, open back ... to have a complete control set.

Digital cameras need a lot more controls to make their settings with. Providing a discrete control for every setting creates a button/switch/knob nightmare which doesn't work. Even if you don't use the image processing system (because you capture raw format files) there is still a complex set of metering options to manage along with other settings which configure the camera to work as you want.

The good news is that most of these settings need to be used once or only rarely. So most of what you need to use, most of the time, are the same as that Nikon FM ... set aperture, exposure time, focus, and release shutter. No need to wind or rewind the film. That means that the in-use OPERATING controls are actually reduced.

Looking at the G1 ... configure the camera operations once, close the LCD, and set it into RAW capture, Manual exposure mode, manual focus. From that point on:

- on/off switch
- one menu to set the ISO sensitivity (one button, two selection arrows)
- one dial that clicks between setting the shutter time or setting the aperture.
- focusing ring on the lens
- shutter release

That's all you need to use to operate the camera past the configuration settings and make your photos with all the facility that the Nikon FM did. Setting the ISO is the only operation that takes multiple button presses, where on the FM you had to press and hold a lock button while turning a selector ring.

If they provided a digital camera that did what the Nikon FM did ... that is, had only raw capture, (no JPEG output), manual focus only, one metering pattern, match-needle metering, no histogram or other exposure setting options, only single frame capture, and replaced the LCD and buttons for setting ISO with a dial and lock button ... the controls would be as simple or simpler than the FM.

The question is, would anyone buy it?

I use all my cameras set up that way a good bit of the time. But in all honesty, I doubt I'd buy a modern camera that could do nothing else. My expectations of what a camera should be able to do have grown beyond what it was possible for an FM to do.

Thomas Wolfe was right: "You can't go home again."
 
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Vivek

Guest
Video mode is super simple (at least on the NX10 and it will not allow any manual focus lenses to be used for video), just one button needs to be depressed.:D
 

kds315

Active member
Same with GH1 so what's the news? And it does accept manual lenses.

P.S.: I like your IR shots a lot. Pana sensors seem to be ideal for that.
 
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Vivek

Guest
Klaus, Stay with the flow. :D

That follows PeterLeyssens wish for a simpler camera. Yes, also the GH1 (I am pretty sure that is the case with the NEXs) video is simple one button operation.

It is the still photographers' never ending list of demands that appears to bog down "camera" companies.;)
 
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Vivek

Guest
Same with GH1 so what's the news? And it does accept manual lenses.

P.S.: I like your IR shots a lot. Pana sensors seem to be ideal for that.
Thanks, Klaus.:)

I think Pana have real potential with their NMOS sensors for IR cams and IR video, etc. Instead of trying to push surplus G1s and the like with reduced price, they should resell them modified for IR for a healthy profits.:lecture:
 
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PeterLeyssens

Guest
Hi,

Never thought I'd get so much response :eek: I'll use a car analogy throughout to show what I mean. It is obviously defective by design, but suppose HCB really was the super fast operator some claim he was, he'd want a camera with simple controls that he can use without even looking at the camera. With a car, you can control the steering wheel, the pedals and the manual gearbox pretty well without watching them. It's necessary. With a camera, it's not so life threatening to have controls that only half work, so vendors don't care as much.

Well that is the direction that Sony tried to take and they are getting skewered in reviews for their first attempt.
Well, no. What Sony did was replace the steering wheel and the pedals by a touch screen. You'd get skewered for less in the car industry.

(purely based on reviews: I haven't handled a NEX yet).


Have you tried Ricoh cameras (GRD, GX, GXR). They have a UI and enough customizable buttons to create the usability you are looking for. The GXR will offer the most flexibility in lenses and sensors for the future.
Unfortunately, my only experience with a Ricoh was trying out a GX200 in a shop. I decided to go with the LX3 back then, but I hear lots of good about the Ricohs all the time.


This is a common complaint and it's mostly just another fantasy as we reminisce fondly for the simpler cameras and simpler times of the past, and miss our photographic youth.
Oh, I do that all the time, so you're very right there.

Most cameras nowadays have a complex of controls needed to configure and tailor their body operations and exposure system to your likings and, even more so, to configure their image processing systems for the output of JPEG images.
Sure, but as cars have way more horsepower now, they require stabilisation systems, anti skid, anti blocking brakes, and lots more that I don't even know. A car is a gigantic distributed computer now with way more CPU power than what any of us has on their desks to do photo processing.

Yet, the interface is quite simple.


Old mechanical cameras like a Nikon FM didn't have image processing systems, customizable operation settings, or configurable exposure systems. You can't do that kind of configurations setup with three knobs like you could when setting aperture, shutter and focus.
Sure. But the Panasonic LC-1 has a very elegant system to do the basic operations: both the aperture (on the lens) as well as the shutter speed (on the body) have an "A" setting: switch both to A and you have A, switch one to A and you have the-other-priority, switch both to another setting and it's fully manual. Why do some cameras need menu items to do this ?

Most cameras have some things implemented in quite a good way and others in quite a bad way. If you compare the worst implementations to the best implementations (as in my example above), you can think of several ways that an ideal camera's user interface could be improved. And from there on, there must be a lot of improvements that haven't been invented yet. One such good idea is Olympus' super control panel: they actually thought about which settings would be frequently used. But then it got implemented with fiddly push buttons on a Commodore 64 lookalike user interface. I am not offering solutions, I know, but there must be a better way.


Peter.
 

jonoslack

Active member
Sure, but as cars have way more horsepower now, they require stabilisation systems, anti skid, anti blocking brakes, and lots more that I don't even know. A car is a gigantic distributed computer now with way more CPU power than what any of us has on their desks to do photo processing.

Yet, the interface is quite simple.
Hmm . . . what sort of car are you driving? . . apart from the steering, gears and the pedals my current car has a worse interface than most cameras (certainly more complex).



I am not offering solutions, I know, but there must be a better way.


Peter.
Well, actually I agree with almost everything you say. Interestingly, the cameras I like and use most seem to be almost there.
The Sony A900 has almost everything on buttons on the outside - with a panel rather like the olympus panel as an alternative, together with user settings on the (APMS) settings dial (which over-ride everything else). I find it very easy and intuitive, and things can certainly be changed without looking.
The M9 really is simple - one menu level, and the rest on buttons or dials on the outside . . . . but the world is clamouring for more features, so I guess that will go in the end too!

all the best
 

Terry

New member
Peter,
No touch screen on the Sony. Just that they've cut back on the number of buttons and made them context sensitive. Using the Sony without looking at the controls is not any different that using a GF1 or EP1 without a viewfinder. Even with optical viewfinder on the Oly and you need to look at the screen to confirm your settings. The EVF is the only way to see all of your settings on the screen and adjust by feel.
 
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Vivek

Guest
While this is not shocking what would replace it could be.;)

Just look what they did to try to replace the G1 (new G1s are still available for great prices)!
 
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