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Are there any new m4/3rds cams with real improvements in sight?

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Vivek

Guest
Hi Peter
It might cost more than a new kitchen where you live . . .:eek:

But it isn't big . . . you know . . . it's the smallest full frame camera in the world!

Jono, Smallest full frame manual focus only digital rangefinder camera in the world? I have real hope that someday Sony would come up with a full frame compact that isn't very expensive.

The Nikon D3/s/x, OTOH, is about the size of some kitchens and also cost the same or more than one.

Well, it isn't the size/cost of the kitchen that matters but what the kitchen produces that does.:deadhorse:
 
P

PeterLeyssens

Guest
Hi Jono,

It might cost more than a new kitchen where you live . . .:eek:
As a matter of fact, it does. Obviously, it won't be the kitchen equivalent of a Leica :ROTFL: I'm definitely hoping to keep my kitchen below €5000. I'm not putting in an AGA, you know.


But it isn't big . . . you know . . . it's the smallest full frame camera in the world!
Sure. The smallest 8x10 camera is also pretty big. I think I let my mind slip into the compact camera way of thinking when I wrote that.


Once the equipment works well enough, I'm simply not fussy enough to keep changing equipment on the hope that some small thing will provide anything much better.
Me neither. Except the small change I'm looking for is a move from film to digital, and a replacement for my broken LX3 ;) Except when I've been on forums for far too long, then everything I have seems bad and everything else seems good, or vice versa.


The aesthetic experience of a top of the line SLR viewfinder is unmatched by any electronic display so far, but I don't rate viewfinders so much for their aesthetic experience as I do by how well they allow me to focus and frame, and control the camera. There the EVF on the G1 and E-P2 excel, imo.
I agree. I completely freaked out on how nice the viewfinder of the OM-4Ti was with the 90/f2 and I used basically just that lens for a 6 week trip to Japan. Afterwards I discovered the advantages of using my other lenses as well and, while still admiring the qualities of the 90/f2, I actually started using it more as a tool. I guess I got a bit of an attack of something similar to audiophilia back then. I use my amp and speakers to listen to music, but I know people who use it to listen to the sound of their cabling :rolleyes:


For instance, a theoretical 45mm f/2 direct equivalent to the 90/2 has 2 stops more DoF and even then cannot create the same background blur due to the fact that the background magnification is 1/2 what the 90 produces on 35mm format at infinity.
Now here's a bit that I don't understand. I get the DOF bit: DOF of a 45mm at f2.8 on µ43 should be the same as DOF of a 90mm at f5.6 on film. Others add that, if you increase the ISO of the film to get the same exposure, this also compensates for the higher sensitivity of each pixel on the larger sensor. Is the image even then still different in another way ? Can you elaborate a bit on the bacground magnification ?


In other words, nails really don't care what hammer hits them, and the furniture the nails and hammer together make is more important than the hammer.

... "Equipment so often gets in the way of Photography." ...
Ooh, yeah, after being on a few forums for a few years, that definitely applies to me. I found that love for equipment sometimes helps me to keep going with photography, which results in more experience after a while, which results in me being a better photographer. And because I buy equipment rather infrequently, I sometimes find myself using some old piece of kit and being able to use it without paying attention to the equipment, instead being fully in the moment and reporting it. Referring to the analogy ("Great food, you must have great pots !"), some cooks actually are gearheads about pots and knifes and the lot. Nothing wrong with that, as long as it keeps pointing back to actually doing something useful with it in the end.

I also find it's much harder to discuss photos on a forum than it is to discuss equipment. I was thinking of building a visual photo commentary site that would make it easy to point out some things (circle around a detail: "this takes away the attention from the subject", etc.). But I don't have time to do that at the moment.


Peter.
 

Jonas

Active member
Now here's a bit that I don't understand. I get the DOF bit: DOF of a 45mm at f2.8 on µ43 should be the same as DOF of a 90mm at f5.6 on film. Others add that, if you increase the ISO of the film to get the same exposure, this also compensates for the higher sensitivity of each pixel on the larger sensor. Is the image even then still different in another way ? Can you elaborate a bit on the bacground magnification ?
If we agree that the crop factor (wohoo) is 2 despite the different aspects of ratio between 4/3 and FF and have two optically perfect lenses...

...then an image taken with a µ4/3 camera with a 45/2 lens at f/2 will look exactly the same as the image taken with a FF camera with a 90mm lens set to f/4. There will be no difference with regards to DOF or background blur.

That's the theory and while understanding the theory I have actually tried it as well.

(You can then discuss noise and double the ISO setting as well to make the images "identical" but I leave that to the sensor and equivalency freaks)

/Jonas
 
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PeterLeyssens

Guest
...an image taken with a µ4/3 camera with a 45/2 lens at f/2 will look exactly the same as the image taken with a FF camera with a 90mm lens set to f/4. There will be no difference with regards to DOF or background blur.
Jonas,

That's how I understood it, too. Time for Olympus to launch a 45/f1 macro. As long as it has the exact same signature as my 90/f2 for OM, of course ;)

Oh, and it can't be more than what I paid for my 90/f2 second hand (€700, I really wonder what that lens went for new !).


Peter.

(tongue still firmly in cheek, if that wasn't clear)
 

Jonas

Active member
Jonas,

That's how I understood it, too. Time for Olympus to launch a 45/f1 macro. As long as it has the exact same signature as my 90/f2 for OM, of course ;)

Oh, and it can't be more than what I paid for my 90/f2 second hand (€700, I really wonder what that lens went for new !).

(tongue still firmly in cheek, if that wasn't clear)
I seriously think they (or Panasonic) should do exactly that, or say an f/1.2 version. I know I have mentioned it earlier... such a lens would be a statement showing some commitment and visions with the system. (And I am serious.)

The exact same signature as the 90/2 Macro... I don't know. That 90mm is blistering sharp wide open, improves slightly and then keep the flag at top. But I wouldn't mind a less with less LoCA. Now I don't know how possible it is to make an 45/1.2 APO but I figure €700 won't cover it...

Cheers,

Jonas
 
V

Vivek

Guest
DOF/back ground blur on an m4/3rds does not need a lens that is twice as fast compared to film.

The DOF tables are based on many assumptions that do not hold true here.

No need for a 45/1, especially from Olympus. These guys can't even make decent a bottom grade kitzoom.
 

jonoslack

Active member
...then an image taken with a µ4/3 camera with a 45/2 lens at f/2 will look exactly the same as the image taken with a FF camera with a 90mm lens set to f/4. There will be no difference with regards to DOF or background blur.

That's the theory and while understanding the theory I have actually tried it as well.
Well, I'm not sure that it's quite that simple (see Vivek above) - but even if we do go with that.
IMHO there are also advantages in the larger depth of field / aperture which m4/3 gives. Especially with macro lenses, where a lack of depth of field is usually more of a problem than a too much dof.

You could turn the argument around and say that the PL 45 will give about twice the DOF of the Olympus 90 at f2.8 (hooray). I guess it's a half full, half empty argument.

Me? I actually like both in different circumstances, so I'll use a different camera depending on those circumstances. I certainly wouldn't want the size that an f1 45mm would be in m4/3.

One thing that is certain sure is that the PL 45 macro has a splendid signature and lovely bokeh.
 

Jonas

Active member
DOF/back ground blur on an m4/3rds does not need a lens that is twice as fast compared to film.

The DOF tables are based on many assumptions that do not hold true here.

No need for a 45/1, especially from Olympus. These guys can't even make decent a bottom grade kitzoom.
I'm quite sure you know better than mix DOF with background blur. Maybe you don't like the Olympus kit zoom but I have seen many very good lenses made by Olympus. I don't care a lot about who makes the lens as long as it is a good one.

Well, I'm not sure that it's quite that simple (see Vivek above) - but even if we do go with that.
IMHO there are also advantages in the larger depth of field / aperture which m4/3 gives. Especially with macro lenses, where a lack of depth of field is usually more of a problem than a too much dof.
There is nothing like "even" if we do go with that. Just skip the DOF tables and try it out.
You could turn the argument around and say that the PL 45 will give about twice the DOF of the Olympus 90 at f2.8 (hooray). I guess it's a half full, half empty argument.
The only time a 4/3 machine can beat a FF camera with regards to DOF is when the 4/3 lens has an f/22 setting and the FF camera lens lack the f/44 setting (or f/16 and f/32 respectively, assuming all lenses can be stopped down to f/16 at least).

Set the PL45 to f/2.8 and the OM90/2 to f/5.6 and you get the same DOF and background blur. But I bet anyone wanting a super sharp and crisp image will prefer the OM90/2 image.

Me? I actually like both in different circumstances, so I'll use a different camera depending on those circumstances. I certainly wouldn't want the size that an f1 45mm would be in m4/3.
Why? How big would it need to be? Check the size of the Pen 42/1.2 and then add some for better optics, it doesn't look impossible to carry at all.

One thing that is certain sure is that the PL 45 macro has a splendid signature and lovely bokeh.
With that I agree, absolutely!

/Jonas
 
V

Vivek

Guest
Jonas, They aren't unrelated. I meant the DOF. I don't want to type all the stuff I already did earlier in one discussion in this section of the forum. It is somewhere here (discussion between me and Douglas).
 

Jonas

Active member
Jonas, They aren't unrelated. I meant the DOF. I don't want to type all the stuff I already did earlier in one discussion in this section of the forum. It is somewhere here (discussion between me and Douglas).
OK, if you meant the DOF only it is better. But I think the DOF theories are close enough for the sort of the discussion we are having here.

Fortunately, the search engine came up with nothing when I looked for "discussion between Vivek and Douglas" - I don't think everything needs to be repeated all over every photo forum. Was there anything special in there I really need to read?
 
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Vivek

Guest
Jonas, I quoted Dr. Brian Caldwell's post (p.net) and his explanations about the effect of thick glass on the sensor. In short, the more glass on the sensor, more fuzz.
The G1's sensor has ~4.75mm thick extra glass. Loads of fuzz. (Film = zero glass induced fuzz).
 

Jonas

Active member
Jonas, I quoted Dr. Brian Caldwell's post (p.net) and his explanations about the effect of thick glass on the sensor. In short, the more glass on the sensor, more fuzz.
The G1's sensor has ~4.75mm thick extra glass. Loads of fuzz. (Film = zero glass induced fuzz).
Thank you, I suspected there could be something since you mentioned it. However, I wouldn't say that is anything really having an effect on this discussion, especially not when comparing to othe rdigital cameras also if they don't have as much raffle stacked on top of the sensor as our (m)4/3 cameras have.
 

jonoslack

Active member
The only time a 4/3 machine can beat a FF camera with regards to DOF is when the 4/3 lens has an f/22 setting and the FF camera lens lack the f/44 setting (or f/16 and f/32 respectively, assuming all lenses can be stopped down to f/16 at least).
I understand where you are coming from Jonas (larger sensor = better high iso so you can shoot with a smaller aperture to get the same shutter speed and thus dof blah blah), but I don't agree in practice, and whichever way you look at it, you'll need a bigger package to get the same dof with a larger sensor.

all the best
 

Jonas

Active member
I understand where you are coming from Jonas (larger sensor = better high iso so you can shoot with a smaller aperture to get the same shutter speed and thus dof blah blah), but I don't agree in practice, and whichever way you look at it, you'll need a bigger package to get the same dof with a larger sensor.
Funny you keep on mention the part I said I leave to the equivalency freaks. The interesting part is that the theories (the 45/2.8 vs 90/5.6 thing we were talking about, and the noise discussion does as well, it depends on the latest sensor technology in what camera) actually work in real life.

Indeed Jono, isn't that true - the smaller sensor and short register distance makes for smaller lenses and that is sweet and nice. We can see it come true with the WA zooms, the pancake lenses and the 45 macro.
My bag loaded with native lenses is easy to carry these days. I wish it was a little heavier, as it would have been fun with at least one fast lens in it.

Cheers,

Jonas
 

jonoslack

Active member
Funny you keep on mention the part I said I leave to the equivalency freaks. The interesting part is that the theories (the 45/2.8 vs 90/5.6 thing we were talking about, and the noise discussion does as well, it depends on the latest sensor technology in what camera) actually work in real life.
I'm sorry Jonas I thought you were into the 'equivalency' thing, if not I apologise. I guess I find the theoretical arguments rather tiresome

Indeed Jono, isn't that true - the smaller sensor and short register distance makes for smaller lenses and that is sweet and nice. We can see it come true with the WA zooms, the pancake lenses and the 45 macro.
My bag loaded with native lenses is easy to carry these days. I wish it was a little heavier, as it would have been fun with at least one fast lens in it.

Cheers,

Jonas
Well, I have a nice light bag with 2 bodies and fast lenses in it:
16 f4
28 f2
35 f1.4
50 f1.4
70 f2

and the PL 45 f2.8
works for me :)
 

Jonas

Active member
I'm sorry Jonas I thought you were into the 'equivalency' thing, if not I apologise. I guess I find the theoretical arguments rather tiresome
It's OK. So do I, it's just odd that so many 4/3 believers, not to say apologists, don't try them and find out that they actually work. Now we can leave that.

Well, I have a nice light bag with 2 bodies and fast lenses in it:
16 f4
28 f2
35 f1.4
50 f1.4
70 f2

and the PL 45 f2.8
works for me :)
...and the only µ4/3 lens on that list is the 45/2.8.

Just as your bag mine mainly contain so called legacy lenses. I keep switching between a decent Computar 12.5/1.3 and the 4/3 9-18mm. Then I use the Panasonic 25/1.4 as a fast normal is my base lens. I let the Zuiko OM50/2 Macro take care about everything in the 50mm region and then I seldom need anything longer. When I do I have a 70/1.4 (Astroscope, a Navitar clone) and a CV75/2.5 and finally there is a Leica 180/3.4 APO lens in a drawer somewhere should it ever be needed.

So, 12.5, 25 and 50 it is, none of them a native µ4/3 lens.

good light,

Jonas
 

jonoslack

Active member
...and the only µ4/3 lens on that list is the 45/2.8.
Yes, certainly, but the difference is that my 'legacy' lenses all go on their legacy camera (M9) (so that 16 is nice and wide :))

Actually, I sometimes carry the Oly 14-42 kit, or the pana 20 f1.7 with me on different occasions.


So, 12.5, 25 and 50 it is, none of them a native µ4/3 lens.

good light,

Jonas
certainly an interesting collection
and good light to you too!
 

Annna T

Active member
Contax G2 :: Remarkable lenses, superb build, wonderful meter and it just about drove me crazy the way the controls worked in operation. Crappy camera.
Mmmm I owned a G1 and soon updated for a G2 and I loved that camera. The only crappy thing was manual focusing. But if you accepted to work with the AF the other controls were very straight forward. The TLA 200 flash was not good : it overexposed all the shots .. but the bigger one (forgot its name) was working well and it had a second smaller flash that allowed you to get that catch light in the eyes when you bounced it.
 
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