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Pana´s Foveon like sensor!!!

photoSmart42

New member
Forgive my ignorance, but how do large prints from Foveon sensors compare to same-size prints from conventional Bayer sensors of a similar effective resolution? My concern with Foveon-type sensors has always been the significant loss in actual resolution because the sensors are only 1/3 in actual resolution compared to a conventional sensor. I too love the color rendition of the Foveons, but if I can't make anything larger than 8x10 prints from it, it has limited use.
 

Rawfa

Active member
Forgive my ignorance, but how do large prints from Foveon sensors compare to same-size prints from conventional Bayer sensors of a similar effective resolution? My concern with Foveon-type sensors has always been the significant loss in actual resolution because the sensors are only 1/3 in actual resolution compared to a conventional sensor. I too love the color rendition of the Foveons, but if I can't make anything larger than 8x10 prints from it, it has limited use.
That is why the DP1/DP2 cameras were always a hit with some and not so much with others. I don´t make large prints, so this is really not on my high priority list...but I can see this as a deal breaker for professional photographers. I´m sure Pana can see this too and will propably have a solution for it.
 

ggibson

Well-known member
Actually, I think most people are put off by the performance of Sigma's cameras and software than the image quality (resolution specifically). In bayer-terms, the 14MP Foveon resolves similarly to a 8-10MP bayer, depending on the subject (it rocks on the color charts). I've heard people say they print 16"x20"s successfully from Sigma cameras; I think it just takes proper handling of the scaling process.
 

Rawfa

Active member
That is why I´m so thrilled about Pana coming up with an alternative. Unlike Sigma, Pana really wants to take on the big dogs (Nikon and Canon) and they know they cannot make the same mistakes that Sigma did when producing their DP cameras.
 

Streetshooter

Subscriber Member
Rafa,
It's a shared dream. I miss the DP cameras and have made beautiful 16 x 20 prints.
If they put that in a Panny...I'll sleep out overnight to get it....

Waynes images over in the small sensor forum shows what the DP's can do.....
 

Amin

Active member
Forgive my ignorance, but how do large prints from Foveon sensors compare to same-size prints from conventional Bayer sensors of a similar effective resolution?.
My experience has been that given a sharp lens, Foveon sensors capture as much detail as a Bayer sensor of roughly twice the MP count. So, a 4.7MP DP1 will capture slightly less detail than a 10MP Bayer sensor. That's enough to make fairly large prints if they are meant to be viewed at typical viewing distances.

Here are some examples of how a DP1 stands up to Bayer competition in terms of detail captured:
 

photoSmart42

New member
My experience has been that given a sharp lens, Foveon sensors capture as much detail as a Bayer sensor of roughly twice the MP count. So, a 4.7MP DP1 will capture slightly less detail than a 10MP Bayer sensor. That's enough to make fairly large prints if they are meant to be viewed at typical viewing distances.

Here are some examples of how a DP1 stands up to Bayer competition in terms of detail captured:
That's very educational, and it does change things in my mind a bit. I can only hope that if and when Panasonic comes out with something like this they'll be able to better the performance from Sigma somehow.
 

pellicle

New member
You can count the number of people who want Foveon technology with the fingers of one hand. I agree Bayer needs to be surpassed, but Foveon is not the way.
relatively speaking one can count on one hand the people who prefer negative (perhaps medium format) film (and scans) over those who prefer full frame digital, that does not mean that one is more able to produce a better image than the other ... so it seems a bit of a straw man argument to me.

Noone has mentioned the pixel density of the Panasonic system (or did I miss that?), not to mention that it is not a carbon copy of the Foveon system.

So if the Panasonic system somehow enables better capture of colour information then I'm all for it. If I could use my digital to capture stuff like this:



instead of like this



which normally needs HDR or colour negative then I'm all for it. (the second is typical digital the first is very close to how my eye's viewed it on the morning)

(note, if the first image was actually neg it would not have had that nasty solar flare as the HDRI does ....)
 

Amin

Active member
I can only hope that if and when Panasonic comes out with something like this they'll be able to better the performance from Sigma somehow.
I'd be interested even if they can't. I always liked the look of the Sigma Foveon sensor, and I imagine that Panasonic would improve some of the operational aspects relative to the DP series.
 

Godfrey

Well-known member
I think this depends on the type of pictures you take.
Why would the type of pictures one makes create any distinction in this regard?

Said another way, can you articulate a pair of instances where a particular, specific sensor type would be a better for one or the other as different from whether the camera being used performs up to the task at hand?
 

woodmancy

Subscriber Member
Why would the type of pictures one makes create any distinction in this regard?

Said another way, can you articulate a pair of instances where a particular, specific sensor type would be a better for one or the other as different from whether the camera being used performs up to the task at hand?
Well, let me butt in - I don't find the question too difficult.

For instance - I have purchased a Ricoh GXR, with the 28-300mm lensor. It has a small sensor. I know I will get noise if I push it. I am going to buy the A12 which has the much larger sensor, and that will give me much less noise pictures than the P10.
So, small sensor for B & W grainy pictures such as from Mitch Alland, or Wouter Brandsma.
A12 for Leica like resolution and character.

Godfrey - am I missing something here?

Keith
 

pellicle

New member
Why would the type of pictures one makes create any distinction in this regard?
well, if you photograph outside and take wedding photographs, don't want washed out dresses and ink blacks then you may be part of the crowd who appreciates the S3 and S5 for their sensors.

If your subject matter normally fits nicely in the scene brightness range of the sensor then its all good.

mine often don't, yours may ...
 

Godfrey

Well-known member
In both your examples, it could be just as easily and accurately said: "I'm choosing camera X because it performs best for what I want", camera X being a complete image capture assembly.

Well, let me butt in - I don't find the question too difficult.

For instance - I have purchased a Ricoh GXR, with the 28-300mm lensor. It has a small sensor. I know I will get noise if I push it. I am going to buy the A12 which has the much larger sensor, and that will give me much less noise pictures than the P10.
So, small sensor for B & W grainy pictures such as from Mitch Alland, or Wouter Brandsma.
A12 for Leica like resolution and character.

Godfrey - am I missing something here?

Keith
The GXR is a bit of a special case as it's the only camera body currently available that has changeable sensors, unless you're talking medium format cameras with interchangeable backs which are an entirely different scope of discussion. This discussion was about a sensor type used in a complete camera, not a situation where you were going to pick a body and sensor independently of one another ... eg: "I want a Micro-FourThirds camera with a Fovean sensor!" If you're picking a hypothetical Hasselblad H12 and Hasselblad offers the same size sensor in both Fovean and Bayer matrix types for that body, then of course the choice between Fovean and Bayer matrix sensors is a discriminator.

It doesn't matter that the P10 vs A12 had a Fovean sensor or a Bayer sensor: the discriminator there is that the GXR+P10 has a much smaller sensor than the GXR+A12. The technology of the sensor is irrelevant ... the camera in one configuration has a performance characteristic that suits your need better than the camera in another configuration. Note that you don't get a choice of Fovean vs Bayer at all ... you get a choice of sensor size. IF there were a P10B and P10F, then the specific sensor technology would make a difference: it becomes a criteria in your selection.

well, if you photograph outside and take wedding photographs, don't want washed out dresses and ink blacks then you may be part of the crowd who appreciates the S3 and S5 for their sensors.

If your subject matter normally fits nicely in the scene brightness range of the sensor then its all good.

mine often don't, yours may ...
In the case of the Fuji S3 and S5, you can't change the sensor in these bodies so you are pick one of these two over other cameras with same format, same resolution sensor because the cameras perform to your desire. The fact that they have a particular Fuji sensor is part of that performance envelope, yes, but you can't choose the camera independently of the sensor, just like you can't choose a Nikon D300s on the basis of Fovean vs Bayer sensor. You choose a Nikon D300s because it performs to the spec you want. The distinction of which sensor a particular body has is irrelevant, it's how the body performs that's important.

It's just like choosing a camera based on whether the sensor is CCD or CMOS technology. Since you don't get a choice model by model of which of these sensor technologies a particular body uses, you choose the body based on how it performs, not what type of sensor technology it contains.
 

Terry

New member
So Godfrey, to bring it full cycle, isn't Rawfa simply saying he wishes his desired sensor were in his desired body??
 
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