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E-5 better in low light than D7000? Yes, maybe.

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pellicle

New member
Jorgen

It's all a question of individual needs of course. The choice for me is between Olympus and Sony. The telephoto need is real, since I shoot motor-sports and sometimes golf. For golf, I even need longer, but a TC or even a good old 500mm f/8 reflex can solve that (golfers move slower than cars).
pardon me asking you to explain this, but I've been following (and contributing to) another thread and I don't understand.

particularly when you say:

What makes Olympus stand out when it comes to the fast 300mm is a combination of optical quality, weight, size and price, and I've never doubted that 4/3 would be the best solution for that.
however what I see is:

Canon EF300 f2.8 IS => 2.7Kg with collar @ US$4,500
Olympus ED 300 f2.8 => 3.3Kg with collar @ US$6,499

particularly in light of your discussion here it seems I'm missing something here.

anyway ... pardon me for intruding
 

Jorgen Udvang

Subscriber Member
Because the Zuiko 150mm f/2.0 has the same reach on an E-5 as the Canon 300mm f/2.8 has on a full frame camera. The new version of the Canon is $6,500 btw.

Just to elaborate on this a bit:
Making a 300mm f/2.8 for FF and for 4/3 is very similar. In theory, the one for 4/3 could maybe be slightly more compact due to the smaller sensor, but with the quality standards Olympus set for themselves, that was probably not possible. A newer lens will be more expensive than an older, simply because the development and tooling costs of the old lens have been written off already. But, as has been seen with Canon's and Nikon's new ventures into this focal length, making a new model also increase the cost. So they are all between 6 and 7,000 dollars now.

We can discuss forever if the Zuiko 150mm f/2.0 is more or less the same as a 300mm f/2.8 or f/4.0 on FF. For me, it doesn't matter. F2.0 at 150mm offers a shallower DOF than I need most of the time, and it allows enough light onto the sensor and through the viewfinder for everything I would use such a lens for. So for me, the Zuiko represents lower weight, smaller size and less cost, while the disadvantages are more or less non-existing. It's arguably one of the best lenses designed and manufactured for photographic purposes ever, and although others make excellent telephoto lenses too, none have made a lens in this class that will fit into a small weekend bag, which is what I use when travelling within Southeast Asia.

A Nikkor 200mm f/2.0 on the D300 would offer me the same range and relatively less DOF and more light, but it's also twice as expensive as the Zuiko. The Nikkor 180mm f/2.8 is a great, inexpensive and also compact lens, but lacks VR and focuses slowly. In five years, I doubt that there will be new Nikkor bodies available that will support AF on this lens. I believe it has been discontinued already. Again, Pentax has the most interesting alternative, a 200mm f/2.8 and IBIS on the K-5, but it's almost as expensive as the Zuiko.
 
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Jorgen Udvang

Subscriber Member
Peter,
Apart from medium and large format users, Leica, Sony and Olympus owners discuss image quality in a different way than others. If you want to discuss photography with Canon or Nikon users, you have to discuss what is important to most of them: technical terms, like High ISO, DR and megapixels. That doesn't mean that Canikon photographers are bad photographers, and it doesn't even mean that they are necessarily wrong. It's just a different platform to start a discussion from.

We all share the same objective: to make a good photo. Those who lean towards Leica or Olympus cameras often have different theories about what makes that good photo compared to those who use the mainstream brands. Still, the results are often similar. No one is right, no one is wrong. Nobody owns the copyright to the final solution. There probably is no such thing anyway. What I do know is that some cameras work better for me than others. I've tried Nikon/Fuji for six years now, after more than 30 years with Olympus. I have learned that I prefer Olympus, but if you ask me why, I can probably only explain 20% or less of that.

This debate has been very refreshing, and it has forced me to check and double check my own views. Very healthy. I'm also very thankful for being on a forum where this kind of discussion is possible. Those who participate here clearly know what they are talking about, and although we may reach different conclusions, there's a lot to learn for all involved.

If or when I change back to Olympus, it will be because I believe their lenses and their cameras suit me more than those from other brands and help me take better photos. But it's reassuring also to know what the limitations are with regards to low light photography, dynamic range and so on. I know more about that now than I did before we started this thread :thumbs:
 
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raist3d

Well-known member
[del]

Actually dpreview I believe started testing for this again after they stopped. The e-330 for example "ran hot" - ie. more sensitive than the ISO that Olympus marked on it, yet they were complying (allegedly) with such ISO standards. A camera as recent as the LX3 ran a little lower.

is there any evidence of this ?
heres the low down on the standards from Andy Westlake in responce to this message from a user confused about the conflicting data DxO present
Several points here:

- Andy doesn't make full raw converters, DXo does. Going by credentials Dxo certainly has far more engineering know how about this than dpreview.
- My own observations on DR between 620, 420, E-3 are matched quite exactly by DXo. This goes from low level dcraw examinations to full pipeline.
- We can ignore manufacturer's ISO's on this discussion because the procedure used by Dxo normalized, put's the sensor at how sensitive they are to light on that graph. So we can ignore the debate on whether the manufacturer ISO is true or not, the graph still holds, the comparison is valid. It would be erroneous say to compare DXo's ISO on one brand and switch to the manufacturer on the other, and that's not what Dxo is doing.


There is a far higher population of users with RAW converters adjusted to manufacturer specs rather than straight RAW converters with no front ends such as dcraw, by and large these follow those same curves as the curves set by the manufacturer which is not to suggest that cant be changed but it is the default position for RAW. Indeed these converters are these days looked upon to be the most favourable comparison, giving the better noise performance and colour gamut than front endless dcraw.
Those manufacturer curves don't change sensor characteristics. That's precisely why every single Olympus camera since the e-30 came out, when Olympus shifted the entire scale up gained so much shadow noise compared to the E-3. There's no free lunch here- highlights preserved at the expense of shadows. ISO 100 = ISO 200 on all these cameras (E-3 and forward) and that includes Pen. It's no wonder then that an under exposed by 1 stop ISO and then brought back up is going to preserve highlights at the expense of shadows, and why ISO 100 "has less DR (erroneously referred from less highlight DR".

Since you never answered me twice Im rightly given to assume your position is that the manufacturer position on ISO is the lesser to DxO,
I don't believe that's logical. I can't agree to the non answer and I can't agree that because someone didn't answer statement A that means that embraced statement B.

which is quite wrong. DxO data fits its own position on ISO and no-one elses, certainly not complying with the manufacturers (all of them) standards. Yes DxO shows data that agrees with your position, the problem all along was you chose the wrong data set.
The exact iSO here (DXo's or manufacturers) really is another point that is separate from the better higher ISO performance of the A900 over the E-5. It looks like we are not going to agree on that one and because it's a different point I am not going to further discuss on that.

- Raist
 

Riley

New member
[del]

Actually dpreview I believe started testing for this again after they stopped. The e-330 for example "ran hot" - ie. more sensitive than the ISO that Olympus marked on it, yet they were complying (allegedly) with such ISO standards. A camera as recent as the LX3 ran a little lower.
the present standard, although it comes from another derivative (that had less industry support) didnt come into play until after Oct 20 2006
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/olympuse330/
http://www.cipa.jp/english/hyoujunka/kikaku/pdf/DC-004_EN.pdf
this document precedes that but I can prove it if doubted

raist3d said:
Several points here:

- Andy doesn't make full raw converters, DXo does. Going by credentials Dxo certainly has far more engineering know how about this than dpreview.
ok, how many cameras do DxO make, and how many photographs do they take?
are you telling me that Andy is wrong about the the nature of DxO testing as it pertains to the standard on this matter, b/se thats an argument you best take up with him. Irrespective of that, your camera has an ISO measurement that conforms to the standard, while nobody argues how well a fit that is between jpeg images, its a fact that most popular RAW converters are amenable to that same specification although this is relatively recent. I think arguing that DxO are the only ones right and everyone else is wrong is quite silly. DxO are right for themselves, everyone else conforms with the standard

raist3d said:
- My own observations on DR between 620, 420, E-3 are matched quite exactly by DXo. This goes from low level dcraw examinations to full pipeline.
- We can ignore manufacturer's ISO's on this discussion because the procedure used by Dxo normalized, put's the sensor at how sensitive they are to light on that graph. So we can ignore the debate on whether the manufacturer ISO is true or not, the graph still holds, the comparison is valid. It would be erroneous say to compare DXo's ISO on one brand and switch to the manufacturer on the other, and that's not what Dxo is doing.
I dont buy that at all, from yourself its simply user derived opinion, its not testing. As to the difference between DxO values and those of actual camera manufacturers on review, one is data, the other is photographic derived data, which is more important?
raist3d said:
Those manufacturer curves don't change sensor characteristics.
if they dont, why are the data points different. You already know the answer, its ot a matter of the sensor and pipeline, its a matter of how the tests are constructed and only that. IMO its a huge blunder on DxO's part for the usefulness of their data, and the correlation to other available data.

raist3d said:
That's precisely why every single Olympus camera since the e-30 came out, when Olympus shifted the entire scale up gained so much shadow noise compared to the E-3. There's no free lunch here- highlights preserved at the expense of shadows. ISO 100 = ISO 200 on all these cameras (E-3 and forward) and that includes Pen. It's no wonder then that an under exposed by 1 stop ISO and then brought back up is going to preserve highlights at the expense of shadows, and why ISO 100 "has less DR (erroneously referred from less highlight DR".
likewise fitting DR to a curve optimised to the highlight end will fit some cameras better than others, hence this leads to our previous discussion of IMATEST data and the proximity of DxO data

raist3d said:
I don't believe that's logical. I can't agree to the non answer and I can't agree that because someone didn't answer statement A that means that embraced statement B.
obfuscation, you were given the opportunity twice, 3x if you include this. I gave you fair warning and its a fair call on my part, and your concluding section here gives the answer to this anyway

raist3d said:
The exact iSO here (DXo's or manufacturers) really is another point that is separate from the better higher ISO performance of the A900 over the E-5. It looks like we are not going to agree on that one and because it's a different point I am not going to further discuss on that.
- Raist
there you go with this assumption that DxO are right, and the rest of the planet is wrong. But FWIW there is some easy math on the noise value of downsampled image sizes. If in this event you went from 24Mp to 12Mp that works out to the root of (24/12) or 1.41
 

pellicle

New member
Because the Zuiko 150mm f/2.0 has the same reach on an E-5 as the Canon 300mm f/2.8 has on a full frame camera. The new version of the Canon is $6,500 btw.
well sure, but why not use the 300mm f2.8 on a crop camera (canon do make them) such as a 7D or even 1D. In which case the comparison will not be as disparate as you are making it by forcing the comparison with full frame.
 

pellicle

New member
well sure, but why not use the 300mm f2.8 on a crop camera (canon do make them) such as a 7D or even 1D. In which case the comparison will not be as disparate as you are making it by forcing the comparison with full frame.
We can discuss forever if the Zuiko 150mm f/2.0 is more or less the same as a 300mm f/2.8 or f/4.0 on FF. For me, it doesn't matter.
but we are not discussing that (well I am not discussing that with you), the thread is long so if you have said why you have discounted the APS camera formats and are fixated on only 4/3 or full frame then please just put in a link to the post and I'll read that.

:)

PS in case you think I'm a Canon mouthpiece please just toddle over to my blog where I have been extolling the virtues of the Panasonic G1 since 2009 and have over 50 posts which discuss the advantages and discuss many legacy lenses that can be adapted for use on it.
 

micek

Member
I don't know if the E-5 is better or worse than other cameras, what I do know is that I regularly shoot with it at iso 1600-2000 with no problems at all, and that I have put it through pretty tough conditions and it just goes on delivering.

You can see pictures of the action I was shooting at: www.villadurnovo.com
 

cjlacz

Member
well sure, but why not use the 300mm f2.8 on a crop camera (canon do make them) such as a 7D or even 1D. In which case the comparison will not be as disparate as you are making it by forcing the comparison with full frame.
Putting the 300mm 2.8 on a crop camera gives you a lens that is too long if you want to use the 150mm 2.0 on the Olympus. A better choice would be the 200mm f2. It's optical quality is probably similar to the 150mm f2 as both are high regarded lenses. It's even more expensive and heavier then the 300mm 2.8. Using a zoom at 200mm on a crop camera just doesn't give the same quality and the recent 70-200s aren't any cheaper or lighter then the Oly 150mm f2.

Using the 300mm on a crop camera would be similar to the 150mm + 1.4x EC. The latter is significantly ligher and cheaper. I don't have links to samples though.
 

Jorgen Udvang

Subscriber Member
I don't know if the E-5 is better or worse than other cameras, what I do know is that I regularly shoot with it at iso 1600-2000 with no problems at all, and that I have put it through pretty tough conditions and it just goes on delivering.

You can see pictures of the action I was shooting at: www.villadurnovo.com
Ha ha, that's wild. Love it :thumbs:

Yes, the excellent weather sealing and solid build are also reasons that count in favour of Olympus. I do break cameras sometimes, and even managed to kill my E-1 in a motorcycle accident.
 

Jorgen Udvang

Subscriber Member
well sure, but why not use the 300mm f2.8 on a crop camera (canon do make them) such as a 7D or even 1D. In which case the comparison will not be as disparate as you are making it by forcing the comparison with full frame.
Cilacz mostly answered that for me, but again: the 300/2.8 of any brand are big, expensive and heavy. A 200/2.0 on DX looks like a better option, being just around 200mm long (the 150/2 is 150mm) against the 260-270mm of the 300mm lenses, but they are still nearly 3 kilograms, nearly twice as much as the 1.6 kilos of the Zuiko. And they are both around $6,000, like their bigger 300mm brothers.

Currently, I use Nikon cameras with an 80-200 f/2.8 AF-S, an excellent lens which takes me to the 300mm eqv. that I need. But it's old and doesn't have VR, and the short end is too long, at 120mm eqv. So I would need another zoom, like the Tokina 50-135/2.8, to fill the gap between the normal zoom and the long one. While there are ways to solve this, none do it as elegantly as Olympus, which is natural, since the lenses are designed from the ground up with the smaller sensor in mind.

I also have a Nikkor 300mm f/4.0. It's a superb lens, but too long for most of what I do when used on DX. It's mostly in the bag or at home. Should I need the 400mm eqv., the 150/2 is still rather good even with the 1.4x TC.

Finally, there's the headache with the normal zoom. The only ones that really impress me, both when I look at test results and real life photography, are the Zeiss/Sony 24-70 and Zuiko 14-35. Some of the others, like the Nikon 24-70, are good, but the Zeiss and Zuiko are better. They are also a bit shorter, which make them easier to hold.

The length of lenses is something that doesn't get discussed too much, but when I'm running around with a camera and lens the whole day, there's a lot of difference between a short and a long lens. That's basic physics, and no big surprise. Here are one of the disadvantages with the Olympus system also: The 35-100/2.0 is rather front heavy. Totally, it's about the same weight as the Nikkor 80-200, but it feels a bit heavier.

Nothing against Canon owners btw. There's no such thing as an unbiased opinion of course, but reading between the lines is one of the challenges being on a forum like this. As for me, I have considered Canon a number of times, and had actually decided to buy the 20D as my first DSLR. What stops me every time is partly ergonomics and partly the white lenses. Many of the places I travel, I don't need a white lens indicating that I have loads of money. Brand recognition has its negative sides too, and the white lenses of Canon are almost as famous as Coca-Cola.

Ooooh... many words. Hope they make sense :)
 

pellicle

New member
Putting the 300mm 2.8 on a crop camera gives you a lens that is too long if you want to use the 150mm 2.0 on the Olympus
probably, but I was only using that as the lens to discuss because he was comparing the Canon EF and the Oly ED in 300. I was only commenting on the comparison with using the EF on Full Frame and then discussing lenses on the Olympus which is 4/3 ... my comment was restricted on making the comparison between systems more "alike" by comparing the Canon APS cameras using 300mm (and Jorgen mentioned Golf and motorsports photography)
 

pellicle

New member
I don't know if the E-5 is better or worse than other cameras, what I do know is that I regularly shoot with it at iso 1600-2000 with no problems at all, and that I have put it through pretty tough conditions and it just goes on delivering.
yep ... it sure is a tough camera!

I recently saw this image taken in Afganistan of (what appears to be) an EOS 1

 

pellicle

New member
Hi

thanks for bringing me into the picture ... I appreciate your valuing my participation by writing this.

...
Finally, there's the headache with the normal zoom. The only ones that really impress me, both when I look at test results and real life photography, are the Zeiss/Sony 24-70 and Zuiko 14-35. Some of the others, like the Nikon 24-70, are good, but the Zeiss and Zuiko are better. They are also a bit shorter, which make them easier to hold.

The length of lenses is something that doesn't get discussed too much, but when I'm running around with a camera and lens the whole day, there's a lot of difference between a short and a long lens. That's basic physics, and no big surprise....

Hope they make sense :)
it does ... and I love my G camera exactly because I can use an FD200f4 and only add 400grams to my backpack. Its because I like the lighter stuff (and prefer the images) that I use 4/3 as my preferred telephoto system.

I moved away from years of Canon to the G system for a number of reasons and still enjoy the lighter camera. I was struck at a conference in my 3rd or 4th month of using the system how much things added up however and found that FD300f4, ZD9-18 zoom, and FD 50 f.14 started to get as heavy as when I was using EOS.

If I was again considering my stuff from scratch I'd consider EF again so I could use a FF body and a crop body to different effect. Probably a 7D and a 5D. I like the tele on the 7D and normal to wide on the 5D ... so 50mm is my turn around point for which to body choose.

Monopods help ... and there are covers for the white lenses.

but if I needed Video then the GH-2 would be hard to avoid.
 

Jorgen Udvang

Subscriber Member
The use of legacy lenses is important for some people, me included, and something that is to some extent shared between the EF, 4/3 and m4/3 mounts. Being able to use a Zeiss 85mm f/1.8 as a 170mm eqv. lens is just great or the equally great OM Zuiko 50mm f/2.0 macro as a short tele. And so on.

The only important reason I see for me to buy a full frame camera is to be able to use lenses like the OM 21/3.5 as a WA lens on a digital camera, and I almost bought a 5D for that purpose only. But in the end, I found that a Zuiko 11-22mm is such a fantastic lens, and cheaper than a 5D anyway, so the 21mm is dedicated to film on the OM-3.

I see E-5 plus GH2 as an almost ideal combination, since the GH2 is usable as a backup for the Olympus. It won't AF with the 150 though, and my Panasonic 7-14 obviously won't fit on the E-5. But here is also one of the challenges for Nikon: in my collection of Nikon lenses, there are several that are not AF-S. There's no way they will AF on an electronic Nikon camera. My prediction is that the AF D lenses will lose their value rather fast when Nikon starts releasing something similar to m4/3. They won't AF, and AIS lenses are better for manual focusing.
 

Terry

New member
Which 150 do you have? The GH2 will AF with the current 150mm. I tried it on a G2 because I was thinking of the 150 + 2x for my safari trip (no GH2 in store but the functionality was added on this round of cameras).

On a G2 it is much slower and jerkier to get focus. The GH2 focuses faster.
 

Jorgen Udvang

Subscriber Member
Which 150 do you have? The GH2 will AF with the current 150mm. I tried it on a G2 because I was thinking of the 150 + 2x for my safari trip (no GH2 in store but the functionality was added on this round of cameras).

On a G2 it is much slower and jerkier to get focus. The GH2 focuses faster.
I don't have it (yet), I read it from the compatibility table on Panasonic's website:

http://panasonic.jp/support/global/cs/dsc/connect/gh2.html

If AF works, that is nice. That makes the E-5/GH2 combo even more attractive :)
 

pellicle

New member
The only important reason I see for me to buy a full frame camera is to be able to use lenses like the OM 21/3.5 as a WA lens on a digital camera, and I almost bought a 5D for that purpose only. But in the end, I found that a Zuiko 11-22mm is such a fantastic lens, and cheaper than a 5D anyway, so the 21mm is dedicated to film on the OM-3.
interesting ... exactly the same lens which keeps me wanting a 5D and mine is relegated to my OM-10 as a film only lens too ... although I do sneak it onto my EOS 630 bodies from time to time too.

If I was doing more motorsport (only occasionally photograph a friend who does vetran and classic stuff) I would be (read am) tempted to get a 20D again so that I could justify buying the EF300f4 to get that fantastic AF

It was that thought I had in mind when first commenting about your discussion of E-5 + 300mm

IFF I bought that combo then without doubt I'd go grab myself a used 5D Mk1 and start using my OM 21mm on it ...

This would of course upset the apple cart at my camera cupboard ...
 

Jorgen Udvang

Subscriber Member
With motor sports, I've found that the ideal lens would be a 24-120 (12-60 in Olympus terms). The clients tend to prefer pan shots, and panning with long lenses is very hard work and difficult to get right. Getting close to the action is what counts. I mostly use the 80-200 for aerial views, hairpins (to get a more dramatic perspective) and those important start grid, pretty girl shots :D
 

pellicle

New member
With motor sports, ... and those important start grid, pretty girl shots :D
sadly there are less of them at Vetran and classic hill-climbs than at (say) the Indy ... ;-)

I just love the "round the tight bend" front on shots with the cars in 'body roll' and lifting a tyre ...
 
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