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Dazzed and confused :(

Rawfa

Active member
Ok, so I´ve spent a little over a year and a half shooting with the Ep1 and the GF1 and I was not happy at all with high iso an dynamic range on these cameras. Then I´ve spend about 2 years shooting with the NEX-5 and the NEX-5N and I could not be happier with high iso and dynamic range...but it makes me furious that all the NEX lenses are gigantic. I mean we will NEVER have a 20mm f1.7 for NEX the size of the NEX 16mm. Sony´s best prime (the 24mm f1.8) is massive in comparison and it costs almost 3 times the price.

Lately with the new micro 4/3 sensors I got really drawn to changing systems again as they are supposed to be considerably better at high iso and dynamic range. I don´t need astronomic values like iso 10000, but I DO shoot at 3200 and occasionally at 6400 (although it´s a lot rarer).

Changing systems is expensive and time consuming (both have to do with the fact that I live in Brazil, where customs is VERY harsh and products are most of the time more than 100% more expensive than in the US).

I don´t want to buy an E-M5 with a 20mm f1.7 (the lens I miss the most), a 14mm f2.5, a 75mm f1.8 and 14-150mm to find out that I "need" to go back to the NEX system.

Oh, decisions, decisions. :banghead:

I would really appreciate people would share their opinions as I know many here have and use both systems.
 

kweide

New member
DR and how i optimized it within my Pen:
All in M- Mode, RAW only
Picture Mode MUTED and in addition
Contrast set to -2
Saturation to -2

Highlight warning set to 245
Histogram off ( it is only valid for JPG !! )

Now i set thru INFO Button for HIGHLIGHT Warning with that red blinkies.
I now do NOT meter for zeroing but for vanishing red blinkies !!!

What do i get : Perfect smooth RAWs with wonderful skintones....No Burned Highlights anymore and still structure in the darks.
Rawfa, if you still have your PEN, go and try it.

Regards
Klaus
 

Rawfa

Active member
Ok, so I´ve spent a little over a year and a half shooting with the Ep1 and the GF1 and I was not happy at all with high iso an dynamic range on these cameras. Then I´ve spend about 2 years shooting with the NEX-5 and the NEX-5N and I could not be happier with high iso and dynamic range...but it makes me furious that all the NEX lenses are gigantic. I mean we will NEVER have a 20mm f1.7 for NEX the size of the NEX 16mm. Sony´s best prime (the 24mm f1.8) is massive in comparison and it costs almost 3 times the price.

Lately with the new micro 4/3 sensors I got really drawn to changing systems again as they are supposed to be considerably better at high iso and dynamic range. I don´t need astronomic values like iso 10000, but I DO shoot at 3200 and occasionally at 6400 (although it´s a lot rarer).

Changing systems is expensive and time consuming (both have to do with the fact that I live in Brazil, where customs is VERY harsh and products are most of the time more than 100% more expensive than in the US).

I don´t want to buy an E-M5 with a 20mm f1.7 (the lens I miss the most), a 14mm f2.5, a 75mm f1.8 and 14-150mm to find out that I "need" to go back to the NEX system.

Oh, decisions, decisions. :banghead:

I would really appreciate people would share their opinions as I know many here have and use both systems.
 
V

Vivek

Guest
It isn't as difficult as it seems, Rafael.

You can always sell the 5 and 5N in the local market after getting the EM-5 and buy those lenses you want.:)

BTW, The local (EU) price here of the 14/2.5 (I already own one) is incredibly low at the moment!

I use a NEX-7 (the one and only that suits me in the NEX line) with all the E mount primes. The low light ability of this one compared to the GH-2 is bad. That does not bother me much since I have accepted it for what it is.

The EM-5, with better handling (with the grips), and the improved high ISO ability will do much better.
 

pegelli

Well-known member
Never say never Rafa, especially if you take into account that Tamron and Sigma are starting to release E-mount lenses of reasonable size and price.

In the meantime there is an abundance of MF lenses which are close to what you're craving for (especially considering you can have them a half stop slower and 1.33 x longer then your list because the APS-C sensor is larger), but I don't know if MF is something you would like.
 

Rawfa

Active member
I have a lot of manual focus lenses but I´ve missed from great action shots by lacking good AF lenses. Tamron and Sigma are yet to show something of interest. Tamrons´ 18-200mm is basically the same size and price as Sonys´. Sigmas´ 30mm f2.8 is small enough but it´s not fast enough and its´closest focusing distance is 30cm (which is a bit more than I´d like it to be).
 

Rawfa

Active member
Vivek, that is the plan at the moment. I´ve put my name down with Monza for an EM-5 body (which is supposed to be a "game changer" in the micro 4/3 game) and I will try it with manual lenses I already have before I start investing in micro 4/3 glass.
 

CPWarner

Member
I am not sure why one would view the EM5 a game changer from a sensor and high ISO standpoint. If that was a major reason for purchasing one, I would wait to see production image results. I see the key advantages of the EM5 in their 5 axis image stabilization, the weather sealing, frame rate, and focusing speed (not proven yet and may be limited by lens choice). Given that Olympus has not yet stated their source of sensor, we really do not know if this is just a refinement on a Panasonic sensor or something new.
 

pegelli

Well-known member
Rafa, I meant that more (unknown) stuff will probably be on the way, but obviously I don't know how "eager" you are to get the lenses you are looking for. (didn't want to say impatient ;))
Actually what do you think of the announced Sigma 19/2.8? I actually do not own a Sony 16/2.8, so I'm wondering how that will perform and if it is a good alternative.
 
V

Vivek

Guest
The origin of the sensor is immaterial to me. I am just very happy that Olympus are finally being sensible and are bringing out a camera with an integrated EVF and not more of the same half blind cameras.

The Panasonic GH-3: I expect that would be awesome as well. The GH-2 is a just fantastic.

With the introduction of the NEX-7, finally there is an useful NEX. The competition is fierce and both are shaping up well.

There is a big edge to the m4/3rds because of all the fine lenses and some useful accessories it has. There is whole bunch more but they aren't compatible across the board and hence of very limited use.
 

Rawfa

Active member
That is my point. What is the point of having an incredible sensor if is surrounded by non-sensor related limitations. I feel really bad because I absolutely adore the sensor on the NEX-5N, but the lenses will never be as portable as the ones for micro 4/3. I recently went to a visit a bird zoo and I really missed having a dedicated tele lens (I shot everything manually with a massive 70-300mm macro) and started thinking about getting the 18-200mm...but when I looked at the pictures of it on a NEX it just looked ridiculous and not at all practical if you compare it to the Olympus 14-150mm or the Pana 14-140mm.

Vivek, what is you "limit high iso" on the GH2? Would you happen to have some iso 3200 samples?
 

CPWarner

Member
I see the origin of the sensor as being important in that if one expects a big jump in improvement over a G3, GX1, or GH-2. If Olympus uses a tweaked sensor from the G3/GX1 then I would not realistically expect a massive improvement in high ISO performance.

I agree that the sensor in the GX1/G3 is a big improvement in my opinion over that in the GF1. I can shoot at ISO 800 and get usable images. I did not feel I could use that in the GF1. That said, I rarely do that and mainly stay at base ISO.

I agree that the other features in the EM5 are very nice to see.
 

CPWarner

Member
Vivek, what is you "limit high iso" on the GH2? Would you happen to have some iso 3200 samples?
DPreview has a pretty tool set that lets you compare to other cameras. I would look up their GH-2 comparison and directly compare the the NEX you are using.
 

Rawfa

Active member
I saw a high iso comparison between the GX1 and the GF1 and there a massive improvement...up to a point that I had second thoughts if the images had been manipulated. The guys displayed images at iso 1600 that were perfectly usable and some 3200 that could be used with some treatment in post. I´ve been browsing the web but I´m yet to see some conclusive studies.

There is actually an interesting comparison between the GX1 and the EP3 here http://www.stevehuffphoto.com/2011/12/29/panasonic-gx1-vs-olympus-e-p3-part-1-basics-and-high-iso/ . IMHO I see a worthy improvement on high iso on the GX1.

And another one between the NEX-5 and the EP3 http://www.stevehuffphoto.com/2011/08/15/iso-wars-the-olympus-e-p3-vs-the-sony-nex-5/ . The NEX-5 comes up as way better.
 
V

Vivek

Guest
Rafael, The way I approach it is different. It isn't one camera but the system.

Among the mirrorless offerings thus far, here is how I look at them:

1. Samsung NX- has everything for a great system. Mediocre in every aspect. Not for me.

2. Nikon/Pentax Q: Toys

3. Pentax K: Chunky, half blind. I do not understand the purpose.

4. Ricoh GXR: Limited to Leica lenses and a few others. Also has limited use EVF (or flash connection). Great sensor!

5. Sony NEX: Great future here, especially after the 7. ADI TTL Flash system is just fabulous as well.

6. M4/3rds: Undisputed leader when it comes to the mirrorless market.
With Olympus now joining it with an integrated EVF camera, it is just fantastic.
 

Tesselator

New member
Someone posted this in another thread about the OM-D:

pekkapotka - Journal

I found it a pretty good read.

Keep in mind two things.

1) If shooting RAW you're mostly (95%) at the mercy of the sensor size and pixel density for ISO performance and DR range. There is no magic hokus-pokus voo-doo that will make a sensor of size/density X perform like one of Y. And companies will even distribute false data to try and get you to believe that there is. So µ4/3 was then what it is now plus the density increase. Period. :) Except for actual blunders like Panasonic's line pattern noise in high ISO darks this is true and you can bank on it when making decisions.

2) If shooting JPeg you're at the mercy of the camera engine's performance and that can only really be revealed by looking at 100's of samples or owning the model in question. For noise removal it's a little easier but for color accuracy, DR compensations and etc. it's good to get a lot of data and a lot of opinions from guys who post lots and lots of good images. And who have used the cameras you're interested in.
 

philber

Member
Rafa, because the NEX sensor is larger than the M 4/3, it performs better, all other things being equal. Hence, better noise and high ISO and DR. And because it is larger, lenses need to be larger as well in order to produce a larger image circle. You can't have your cake and eat it. Therefore, what you get are incremental improvements on both system that may, for a while, leapfrog each other, until the other one catches up and overtakes the competition for a few months or even weeks...
 

biglouis

Well-known member
Rafa

I wish there was an easy answer one way or the other. I keep on with m43rds not because of the quality of the sensor but because of the quality of the lenses. The 20/1.7 and my Leica 45/2.8 produce fantastic results from such a portable camera. I can also turn in very good birding pictures using the 100-300. The size of the camera and the portability of the lenses for the system mean that I have a camera with me - as opposed to sitting at home because it is too heavy, or requires too much effort.

I don't believe a m43rds sensor will ever approach the quality of larger sensors but you never know. As others have said, I would wait and see what the results from the EM-5 are before making any hard decisions, if you can.

LouisB
 

pophoto

New member
Rafael, The way I approach it is different. It isn't one camera but the system.

Among the mirrorless offerings thus far, here is how I look at them:

1. Samsung NX- has everything for a great system. Mediocre in every aspect. Not for me.

2. Nikon/Pentax Q: Toys

3. Pentax K: Chunky, half blind. I do not understand the purpose.

4. Ricoh GXR: Limited to Leica lenses and a few others. Also has limited use EVF (or flash connection). Great sensor!

5. Sony NEX: Great future here, especially after the 7. ADI TTL Flash system is just fabulous as well.

6. M4/3rds: Undisputed leader when it comes to the mirrorless market.
With Olympus now joining it with an integrated EVF camera, it is just fantastic.
+1 absolutely agree. I would say NEX system is great, but lenses just aren't ready yet! Yes you keep hearing it and people keep saying but they just not releasing anything good!
 
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