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Only reason I won't get an M1: the M5

RichA

New member
I've looked at lots of examples and I believe the M5 has an edge in sharpness, resolution and contrast. Noise seems about the same. I like the M1 body, but they did something to the camera that changed the image look from the M5. The difference is small, but it reminded me a lot of the image differences between Nikon's D800 and D800E. It is almost like a slight veil is lifted from the lens. I have not compared the M1 and M5 directly, only gone off the review site's comparisons, however.
 

ptomsu

Workshop Member
I've looked at lots of examples and I believe the M5 has an edge in sharpness, resolution and contrast. Noise seems about the same. I like the M1 body, but they did something to the camera that changed the image look from the M5. The difference is small, but it reminded me a lot of the image differences between Nikon's D800 and D800E. It is almost like a slight veil is lifted from the lens. I have not compared the M1 and M5 directly, only gone off the review site's comparisons, however.
I own both and I absolutely prefer the look of the EM1 files. Clear to see the advantage of no AA filter (much more detail) and also IMHO the EM1 manages WB much and exposure slightly better than the EM5.

Not to talk about the better IBIS and the better grip and feel (for my type of use).
 

David Klepacki

New member
I own both and I absolutely prefer the look of the EM1 files. Clear to see the advantage of no AA filter (much more detail) and also IMHO the EM1 manages WB much and exposure slightly better than the EM5.

Not to talk about the better IBIS and the better grip and feel (for my type of use).
Hmmm...I tested both and I found the EM5 to perform slightly better. The lack of AA filter in the EM1 is somewhat of a myth, as Olympus makes no such claim and there is indeed a low-pass filter in that camera, whether or not they call it an AA filter. Personally, I found sharpness (accutance) to be slightly better on the EM5 at least with really good lenses, as also found by DxOmark.com (e.g., dxomark reports images with the Olympus 75mm/1.8 to have sharpness rating of 12MPix on EM1, while 13MPix on EM5). So, it is patently false that the EM1 produces sharper images than the EM5.

However, the biggest problem with the EM1 is the banding/striping produced by the new phase detect AF sensels of its sensor. Many images (and video) are ruined because of this. It only happens under certain lighting conditions, but nevertheless it never happens with the EM5. This is a serious flaw with the EM1 sensor, and Olympus is painfully aware of it. Someone recently posted images of the defect on eoshd.com.
 

Annna T

Active member
I've looked at lots of examples and I believe the M5 has an edge in sharpness, resolution and contrast. Noise seems about the same. I like the M1 body, but they did something to the camera that changed the image look from the M5. The difference is small, but it reminded me a lot of the image differences between Nikon's D800 and D800E. It is almost like a slight veil is lifted from the lens. I have not compared the M1 and M5 directly, only gone off the review site's comparisons, however.
When the E-M1 was issued, i thought very hard about it : i wanted the 12-40mm and there was an appreciable rebate when getting the kit. I went to an Olympus demo back in october, but found that while some buttons were nicely placed for my hands, not all where. The backwheel was a little to high for my hands (the same reason why i'm not using the horizontal grip on the E-M5) and lastly, i appreciate the smaller form factor of the E-M5. The VF was superb however and very tempting. So it was a hard decision, but in the end i stayed with the E-M5.

Later when the DXO results appeared, i was a little surprised, but the E-M5 seems to have an edge, or their evaluation have changed, or the on sensor PDAF comes at a price.. Or this is due to the new much faster processing engine ?

One sure problem is that when using the E-M1 without long exposure noise reduction (aka without dark frame subtraction) it is much more noisy than the E-M5 : a real problem for astro photography. This was clearly demonstrated by different photographers on the DPReview forum.

So in the end, while i regreat the new VF4 like finder, i'm happy with my decision. All the more so that i don't need PDAF. However, unless you need long exposure without darkframe substraction, in usual shooting conditions, there is no clear difference between the two cameras.

PS : It is curious, i just checked the DXO results and now the E-M1 is getting slightly better results than the E-M5, save for noise : http://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Compare/Side-by-side/Olympus-OM-D-E-M1-versus-Olympus-OM-D-E-M5___909_793

I remember that people were having issues with the GX7 results and in the comment section at the time i wondered about the compared results of the E-M1 and E-M5.. May be that they checked their results again.. I didn't follow up at the time.

Those difference are minimal, but when you look at the lenses results, they do systematically show somewhat less resolution than when put on the E-M5 sensor although i didn't check it right now).
 
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jonoslack

Active member
So in the end, while i regreat the new VF4 like finder, i'm happy with my decision. All the more so that i don't need PDAF. However, unless you need long exposure without darkframe substraction, in usual shooting conditions, there is no clear difference between the two cameras.
So maybe the answer is to use an E-P5 with the VF-4?
 

Annna T

Active member
So maybe the answer is to use an E-P5 with the VF-4?
I was considering that as well, I have a white E-P3 with VF2 and loved it. The buttons' position and the two dials were perfect for my hands. But in the end, the optional VF, which i always kept on, makes the camera a little too cumbersome. I tried the E-P5 with VF-4 and was somewhat tempted to get a white one again, but then decided to wait to see what the successor of the E-M5 would be.

May be that I'm recovering from my acute GAS syndrom ? (Although i should stop lurking in the Sony A7 threads ..). I have got 6 cameras in 5 years, but since the E-M5 the MFT system has matured and is good enough for what i do.

Right now, i'm busy clearing my cupboard of unused bodies. I sold my M6 and 35mm F2, because it is a sin to keep an unused Leica in a cupboard. I sold a Panasonic G3 with the 14-45mm and gave my lovely E-P3 to my sister right this afternoon. The 5D is on sale at the same brick and mortar shop, but contrary to what the shop owner told me, there are apparently less amateurs for it than for the M6 and G3.

If i hadn't updated my classic 5D to a 6D last June, i may have gone for an A7. But as is, i feel that i should rather just use the gear i have, practice and stop looking at fear forum. More pixels won't make me a better photographer anyway.. Although i could make use of more DR <grin>
 

scott kirkpatrick

Well-known member
I'm not picky enough to get into these discussions as a rule... but I have both an E-P5 (with VF4) and the E-M1. Presumably the 75/1.8 is the lens to compare them with. Can I assume that the masterful qualities of the E-M5 are completely shared by the E-P5, so that comparing these two will also address the question of E-M5 vs E-M1? The press descriptions at the time the E-P5 was introduced left me thinking that it was the same sensor and the same image processing chip as the E-M5.

scott
 

Annna T

Active member
I'm not picky enough to get into these discussions as a rule... but I have both an E-P5 (with VF4) and the E-M1. Presumably the 75/1.8 is the lens to compare them with. Can I assume that the masterful qualities of the E-M5 are completely shared by the E-P5, so that comparing these two will also address the question of E-M5 vs E-M1? The press descriptions at the time the E-P5 was introduced left me thinking that it was the same sensor and the same image processing chip as the E-M5.

scott
To make it short, yes : here are the DXO results :

here are the DXO results

I don't know exactly to what the mpix correspond, but they measure resolution. Compared to the E-M1, E-M5 or E-P5, E-Pl5 and E-Pm2, the GX7 and GH2 get much lower results. The GH3 does better but people think that it has the same sensor as the E-M5.
 

David Klepacki

New member
The GH3 sensor shows the least sharpness of these cameras. Here is a summary from sharpest to least sharp, according to DxO measurements:

1. EM5 (rating = 13)
2. EM1 + EP5 (rating = 12)
3. GH3 (rating = 11)

However, I would actually rate the EM1 much lower due to its banding issue. None of the other sensors exhibit this problem. For convenience, attached below is a photo of the EM1 sensor that shows the banding on it. It is an unfortunate by-product of the new phase detection AF that was introduced on the EM1 in order to support legacy four thirds lenses.

So, if you are on the fence about getting/upgrading to the EM1, it might be best to wait until this issue is addressed (most likely the next EMx camera though). Unfortunately, this is something that may not be fixable via firmware, as it is part of the actual sensor on the EM1. Users are waiting for a response from Olympus, but it sounds like they do not want to issue a recall.

My guess is that Olympus will probably release another camera very soon without the phase detection sensels on it that are causing the problem.
 

Jorgen Udvang

Subscriber Member
I'm not sure if I understand this discussion. The best arguments for buying the E-M1 over the E-M5 are the PD AF and the ergonomics. For most other purposes, the images will be impossible to tell apart for most viewers, myself included. That would make the E-M5 much better value for money.
 

k-hawinkler

Well-known member
Well, besides PD AF and ergonomics I think also IBIS and continuous tracking are better in the E-M1.
If these features don't matter to get the shot then the E-M5 seems at least equal in IQ to the E-M1.

Isn't there also some advanced processing, like diffraction correction, that takes place in the E-M1 for native Olympus lenses? I am not aware that this feature is available in the E-M5.
 

Zlatko Batistich

New member
However, the biggest problem with the EM1 is the banding/striping produced by the new phase detect AF sensels of its sensor. Many images (and video) are ruined because of this. It only happens under certain lighting conditions, but nevertheless it never happens with the EM5. This is a serious flaw with the EM1 sensor, and Olympus is painfully aware of it. Someone recently posted images of the defect on eoshd.com.
The report on Eoshd.com is the only mention I've seen of this. The author doesn't say what lens he used. He does write that he has only shot video (not stills) with the camera. Are there any other examples of this problem? Has anyone seen it in stills? If so, with what lenses?

With all of the people shooting the E-M1 for the past few months, I would think that this would have been widely reported if it were indeed a serious flaw. If only one person has seen it and only in video, then it may not be much of a problem.
 

drofnad

Member
It's always a hair-pulling nightmare to read these camera/lens-comparison threads where people swear opposite conclusions and ... --maybe I need to drink a stronger tea. Somewhere there's this voice from a LensRentals fellow who's done a fair bit of his own comparisons and makes a point about sample variations which might bear on this discussion.

Meanwhile, over on LuLa (where lowly $500 G10s can match Hassy MedFormats which can trump high-DSLRs even at 30' in small prints ... !), comes that fashion fotog m43 fan BCooter proclaiming his luv for E-M5 files, over E-M1 & 1DX no less (and over in-store-tested A7 (r-less)). He likes the "film-like look" and decent behavior into moderate ISOs (neverminding ISO xxx_000!). Haven't seen any mentions of banding; some are (un)lucky, I guess.

A7r Shutter shake!!!

Godfrey's wisdom is to ignore all this back'n'forth pixel-pinching by recognizing a practical bar of goodness that they are these days all surely going to meet and likely surpass. ... , GH3, E-M5, GX7, E-M1, GM1, E-P5, ...

And then the DxO results go ping-ponging?
Okay, where are my dice!

-d.
 

Godfrey

Well-known member
...
Godfrey's wisdom is to ignore all this back'n'forth pixel-pinching by recognizing a practical bar of goodness that they are these days all surely going to meet and likely surpass. ...
Thank you.

I no longer fears that any new camera beyond a certain price level is going to be insufficiently capable to satisfy me in terms of picture quality. What I like using, what inspires me to make photographs, remains a one by one challenge to discover.

The E-M1 is meeting my smile quotient handily at present. I've got an A7 sitting on the shelf, waiting for the Leica R mount adapter to arrive, so I can see how I like it and get some use out of these lovely old lenses on the shelf next to it. And yesterday I did some shooting with the Polaroid Spectra Pro again ...

The adventure continues. :)

G
 

nostatic

New member
I've been going back and forth. Shot an EM5 for a year or so with good results. Had to use the half grip though to get it near comfortable. I ended up picking up a gH3 for work to do mostly video but have been shooting stills as well. Sold the EM5 in anticipation of getting an EM1. While sorting that out also got a GM1 which is really quite fun due to the size and portability.

Long story short, I finally picked up an EM1, shot it for a few hours, then sent it back. In my hands and looking at my files, the only significant advantage I felt was the IBIS. The ergos on the EM1 were better than the EM5 alone, but not as good as the EM5 with battery grip (sans battery portion). IQ between the Pannys and the EM1 was a wash - again, for my needs. And frankly I hated the shutter on the EM1. One of the worst I've felt. No feedback on travel and all of the sudden it shoots. Two other ones I handled in stores felt the same so seems to be a feature, not a bug. Surprised this doesn't get mentioned more.

Ergos are personal so that's something that can be hard to predict. I took the GH3 for 2 hour walkabout last night and handheld it single hand almost the entire time with good comfort 12-35/2.8 on it. Now I'm back to pondering the A7 as I know I'd get an IQ bump for some stuff, just not sure if my lazy run-and-gun style fits it well. As always, ymmv and consider the gas behind the decisions :-D
 

greypilgrim

New member
I've been going back and forth. Shot an EM5 for a year or so with good results. Had to use the half grip though to get it near comfortable. I ended up picking up a gH3 for work to do mostly video but have been shooting stills as well. Sold the EM5 in anticipation of getting an EM1. While sorting that out also got a GM1 which is really quite fun due to the size and portability.

Long story short, I finally picked up an EM1, shot it for a few hours, then sent it back. In my hands and looking at my files, the only significant advantage I felt was the IBIS. The ergos on the EM1 were better than the EM5 alone, but not as good as the EM5 with battery grip (sans battery portion). IQ between the Pannys and the EM1 was a wash - again, for my needs. And frankly I hated the shutter on the EM1. One of the worst I've felt. No feedback on travel and all of the sudden it shoots. Two other ones I handled in stores felt the same so seems to be a feature, not a bug. Surprised this doesn't get mentioned more.

Ergos are personal so that's something that can be hard to predict. I took the GH3 for 2 hour walkabout last night and handheld it single hand almost the entire time with good comfort 12-35/2.8 on it. Now I'm back to pondering the A7 as I know I'd get an IQ bump for some stuff, just not sure if my lazy run-and-gun style fits it well. As always, ymmv and consider the gas behind the decisions :-D
I started a thread here a while ago about the short travel of the shutter release on a sample I was trying at a photo fair at the local store. I was similarly displeased with it. But others seemed to think it was a sample variance or a demo overuse issue.

So, like I said above, I am going to shoot with a rental for a weekend to see how it plays out. I did the same thing for a week over the break with the Fuji XE-2, and I found that actually spending a lot of time with a rental helps a lot to get the true feel of the camera.

On the EM-5 grip, I use the Really Right Stuff grip for it and prefer that over the Oly one. Again, personal preference.

Why am I looking at other cameras as I am so happy with the EM-5? My daughter is casting covetous eyes at my EM-5 :), and I would like to have a second body...

Doug
 

Godfrey

Well-known member
I started a thread here a while ago about the short travel of the shutter release on a sample I was trying at a photo fair at the local store. I was similarly displeased with it. But others seemed to think it was a sample variance or a demo overuse issue.
...
Why am I looking at other cameras as I am so happy with the EM-5? My daughter is casting covetous eyes at my EM-5 :), and I would like to have a second body...
I personally have had no problems with the feel of the E-M1 shutter release. I've used mine and three others, they all feel the same, and remind me most of the E-1 shutter release (best of all of them). I can reliably half-press, change settings, then finish the press every time. The first half press is very light and short, just the way I like it.

However, if you like the E-M5 so much, why not just keep yours and buy another one for your daughter? That would be a nice gift!

There's no reason not to stick with a camera that works well for you. Technically newer and more feature-filled isn't necessarily always better.
 

greypilgrim

New member
I personally have had no problems with the feel of the E-M1 shutter release. I've used mine and three others, they all feel the same, and remind me most of the E-1 shutter release (best of all of them). I can reliably half-press, change settings, then finish the press every time. The first half press is very light and short, just the way I like it.

However, if you like the E-M5 so much, why not just keep yours and buy another one for your daughter? That would be a nice gift!

There's no reason not to stick with a camera that works well for you. Technically newer and more feature-filled isn't necessarily always better.
Absolutely on the keep mine and buy one thing, but trying out an EM-1 for real will either validate that direction or open my eyes to other possibilities. Loved the IQ of the Fuji when I rented it, liked a lot of the handling, and the high ISO performance was scary good. No tilt screen, no ibis, and no button for manually switching between LCD and EVF (I don't like the eye sensor modality of shooting).

On trying out the EM-1, will the disagreement with the shutter release go away? Will the ergonomics be better? Will the new EVF be that much better? Etc, etc, etc... So, I try it out

Totally agreed with the philosophy of if it aint broke.... But I like to play around :).

And yup, something will be a nice graduation gift for her. Besides, I like to encourage her obsession with photography...

Doug
 

David Klepacki

New member
Well, besides PD AF and ergonomics I think also IBIS and continuous tracking are better in the E-M1.
If these features don't matter to get the shot then the E-M5 seems at least equal in IQ to the E-M1.

Isn't there also some advanced processing, like diffraction correction, that takes place in the E-M1 for native Olympus lenses? I am not aware that this feature is available in the E-M5.
The E-M5 has the same processing features as the E-M1 in terms of native Olympus lenses. As far as IQ though, I tested both cameras and found that my 75mm/1.8 lens was also slightly sharper on the E-M5, consistent with the findings of DxOmark. This was a big disappointment to me, since I was excited about a possible lack of AA filter on the E-M1, which turned out not to be true.

The report on Eoshd.com is the only mention I've seen of this. The author doesn't say what lens he used. He does write that he has only shot video (not stills) with the camera. Are there any other examples of this problem? Has anyone seen it in stills? If so, with what lenses?

With all of the people shooting the E-M1 for the past few months, I would think that this would have been widely reported if it were indeed a serious flaw. If only one person has seen it and only in video, then it may not be much of a problem.
Yeah, unfortunately I did not test the E-M1 when shooting towards light sources. I guess like most people who try to control their testing scenario, such cases are typically ignored. You should be able to see the stripes though on the E-M1 sensors, if you go to a store that has them for demo or display. And you are probably right that it won't be much of a problem in typical shooting. But it bugs me that it can happen at all on the E-M1.

I was really hoping the E-M1 would be an improvement over the E-M5. There are indeed some improvements in the E-M1 viewfinder and perhaps its ergonomics as compared to the E-M5 without a grip, but in the end the images from the E-M5 were always a wee bit better, at least with my lenses.
 
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