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G1 and IR

Diane B

New member
Hi Di

I would ask why you have an IR converted camera and don't use it much?
Its just a simple situation of ending up carrying several bodies and lenses. Since I've been shooting a lot more with the G1, I carry it plus lenses. Then--often for any shooting that will be mostly landscapes, I usually carry the 5D also with the lenses I prefer for it. The 10DIR is a 6MP older tech camera--still great shots with it but its not as pleasing to handle--and I find that after years of piddling with IR I just don't have as much interest in it except very sporadically so I hate to carry that 3rd camera along (and I've found that it seems to like particularly a lens I never use with the 5D--the 28-135 IS LOL).

Diane
 

Diane B

New member
The camera has no useful UV or IR sensitivity as is.
Vivek, do you mean in terms of having to use a long shutter time? I had no trouble doing IR with the G1 and the Hoya R72--but, as I said, with a relatively longish shutter time (see above). This has been true with all my Canons from D30 (which was a pretty good IR body, through the D60 (which was a terrible IR body--as I recall the filters were blamed), the 10D which was okay, 20D--okay--5D--okay--but again, all absolutely needed tripod mount and longish shutter times. This was all with the Hoya R72. The 10DIR converted by Lifepixel is handholdable, works with all lenses except my 12-24--really none of the WAZ plays well with it for AF but it was calibrated to a 50 I believe--guessing that makes a difference.

Diane.
 

scho

Well-known member
Vivek, do you mean in terms of having to use a long shutter time? I had no trouble doing IR with the G1 and the Hoya R72--but, as I said, with a relatively longish shutter time (see above). This has been true with all my Canons from D30 (which was a pretty good IR body, through the D60 (which was a terrible IR body--as I recall the filters were blamed), the 10D which was okay, 20D--okay--5D--okay--but again, all absolutely needed tripod mount and longish shutter times. This was all with the Hoya R72. The 10DIR converted by Lifepixel is handholdable, works with all lenses except my 12-24--really none of the WAZ plays well with it for AF but it was calibrated to a 50 I believe--guessing that makes a difference.

Diane.
Agree. I have a little Canon 350D that was converted by maxmax.com and that is fine for action shots when I need it. Image below was shot at 1/400 sec f/11, ISO 400. The maxmax conversion removes the AA/IRcut package and replaces with only an IR pass filter so there is also a significant gain in resolution without the AA filter.

 
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Vivek

Guest
Vivek, do you mean in terms of having to use a long shutter time? I had no trouble doing IR with the G1 and the Hoya R72--but, as I said, with a relatively longish shutter time (see above).
Diane.
Hi Diane, With the Hoya R72, you have 50% transmission at 720nm (the transmission increases after that in the IR region) and the filter itself (you can see through it with naked eyes) has a good bit of red transmission. The G1 has no IR sensitivity at all. What you and others are recording are deep red images that gives "similar" IR effect. With a regular red filter, you would get the same on the G1.

The E-420 is similar to the G1 in IR behaviour. I removed the AA/IR cut filter and now the IR sensitivity is ~5 stops more (R780 filter, very little red, if any, compared to the Hoya R72) than the corresponding visible light sensitivity.

Besides the poor sensitivity, the clarity also takes a big jump once the internal AA/IR cut filter pack is removed (E-410).
 

Terry

New member
There is another IR thread going and the company Precision Camera seems to make the conversions for a lot less than Maxmax. I have a Canon A620 sitting unused in NY that I am going to send off for conversion next week!
 

Diane B

New member
I have a Cokin red filter, but it has quite a much less effect than the Hoya does on the G1. I do understand about the various filters, etc. Its been debated for a long time with digital cams and what filters to use. There are quite a lot of sites (most old now since the majority of people interested in lots of IR shooting are having cameras converted) about the various filters, but, for me, the effect is sufficient with the R72. Its not so different from my converted 10D--at least to satisfy my bit of shooting (except that the 10D is handholdable--but requires I carry yet one more body and lens[es]). I think those that shot film HIE IR want more of a glow--in fact, years ago someone had a pretty decent action that created that HIE glow with the digital/R72 and the other darker filters.

If you were near me, I'd love to have you fiddle with some of my older cams (like the 400d or G9) but, alas, those of us that don't understand or have any of your talent in doing this have to do with whatever we have LOL.

Thanks for your explanation--do you have any examples???--your examples sometimes help better than anything to get it across.

Best, Diane
 

Diane B

New member
There is another IR thread going and the company Precision Camera seems to make the conversions for a lot less than Maxmax. I have a Canon A620 sitting unused in NY that I am going to send off for conversion next week!
Check LIfepixels also--I don't remember if there was any difference or not--but they do offer several different filter options.

Diane
 

scho

Well-known member
Hi Diane, With the Hoya R72, you have 50% transmission at 720nm (the transmission increases after that in the IR region) and the filter itself (you can see through it with naked eyes) has a good bit of red transmission. The G1 has no IR sensitivity at all. What you and others are recording are deep red images that gives "similar" IR effect. With a regular red filter, you would get the same on the G1.

The E-420 is similar to the G1 in IR behaviour. I removed the AA/IR cut filter and now the IR sensitivity is ~5 stops more (R780 filter, very little red, if any, compared to the Hoya R72) than the corresponding visible light sensitivity.

Besides the poor sensitivity, the clarity also takes a big jump once the internal AA/IR cut filter pack is removed (E-410).
Vivek, The G1 with a B+W 092 filter (same as R72 or the Wratten equivalent) is definitely recording near IR response. The images I posted above demonstrate a clear Wood effect that is only obtainable with near IR. You can't replicate this with just a red filter using light in the visible spectrum. I've made comparisons with several IR pass filters that cut at various wavelengths and there is really not much difference in the recorded IR image between an 093 and the 092 or R72 other than the additional visible red light that is also passed with the two latter filters.
See: http://homepage.mac.com/scho/MySlideshow/filtercomp.html
 
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pellicle

New member
Hi

Its just a simple situation of ending up carrying several bodies and lenses.
fair enuff ... sorry if I irked you by asking ... as one who loves IR laments it going and can't afford a converted camera I was just curious.


The 10DIR is a 6MP older tech camera--still great shots with it but its not as pleasing to handle--and I find that after years of piddling with IR I just don't have as much interest in it except very sporadically so I hate to
sounds fair ... I loved my 10D and just recently sold it. I still have 2 EOS bodies and 2 lenses (50 f1.8 and 24 f2.8) which work nicely with IR, if you happen to be interested in off loading that 10D IR then subject to price I will be interested. It will have to wait till I'm out of though, Finland cos this nations tax laws are so "stinking money grabbing ba5tard" that I would end up paying about $200 just in taxes for it (even if you sold it to me for $200). Unlike Australia there is essentially no "free threshold" and after the last 2 years I'd not want to give them any extra cash. God willing that'll be January.

:)
 

Diane B

New member
Hi



fair enuff ... sorry if I irked you by asking ... as one who loves IR laments it going and can't afford a converted camera I was just curious.


sounds fair ... I loved my 10D and just recently sold it. I still have 2 EOS bodies and 2 lenses (50 f1.8 and 24 f2.8) which work nicely with IR, if you happen to be interested in off loading that 10D IR then subject to price I will be interested. It will have to wait till I'm out of though, Finland cos this nations tax laws are so "stinking money grabbing ba5tard" that I would end up paying about $200 just in taxes for it (even if you sold it to me for $200). Unlike Australia there is essentially no "free threshold" and after the last 2 years I'd not want to give them any extra cash. God willing that'll be January.

:)
Oh, not irked at all :>)

I don't dislike the 10D. I ended up keeping it over the 20D when I sold off a lot to buy the 5D a number of years ago. The 10D handled more like the 20D plus I had the grip for it if I chose, I liked the very quiet shutter sound--and I had had good luck with it. Now, I guess, the quite small LCD (which I use almost totally just to read a histo), smaller VF than the 5D are what keep me from using it more--but--truly its just keeping up with 3 bodies if I go out. When I shoot--I have to get in a car and go somewhere since I don't go into a city for work--and that means packing up and making a decision what goes that day--and what stays home. The 10D has been staying home :(

It will stick around--mostly because I'm very bad about selling anything off. One might need it :ROTFL::ROTFL::ROTFL: I just need to take a good day for IR shooting and spend time with it again. There's no question its nicer to shoot with than the G1/filter but OTOH, having the Hoya in the folder with the polarizer and NDs means I have it if I find a good shooting opportunity for IR.

Diane
 
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Vivek

Guest
Here are two comparison shots taken with the G1 (a Noflexar 35/3.5 at f/5.6, ISO100) of the backside of a house plant. Soft evening light directly on the leaf.

The visible capture:



Exposure: 1/640s

The "IR" capture with a Hoya R72 filter on the lens, same aperture, ISO:



Exposure: 20 seconds

The same leaf under same conditions with the Hoya R72 on a modified E410 (image processed/resized the same way as the G1 image).



Apart from the >12 stop exposure difference, the typical tonality from IR is lacking in the HoyaR72 on G1 capture.

I tried the Heliopan R780 on the G1 and gave up after 40 seconds. This filter on the modified E410 made little difference in terms of exposure.
 
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Vivek

Guest
Here is how the IR cut filter in E-410 looks like under IR.



In visible light, the same filter pack:



another view:

 

scho

Well-known member
Here are two comparison shots taken with the G1 (a Noflexar 35/3.5 at f/5.6, ISO100) of the backside of a house plant. Soft evening light directly on the leaf.

The visible capture:



Exposure: 1/640s

The "IR" capture with a Hoya R72 filter on the lens, same aperture, ISO:



Exposure: 20 seconds

The same leaf under same conditions with the Hoya R72 on a modified E410 (image processed/resized the same way as the G1 image).



Apart from the >12 stop exposure difference, the typical tonality from IR is lacking in the HoyaR72 on G1 capture.

I tried the Heliopan R780 on the G1 and gave up after 40 seconds. This filter on the modified E410 made little difference in terms of exposure.
Vivek, The key to extracting the IR image from the "masked" image (visible red pollution) is in RAW processing. First, you MUST shoot in RAW and process the image in something like ACR that permits custom WB adjustment. The easiest route in ACR is to simply use the custom WB dropper (gray one) and in your image the green leaf is the correct target for this adjustment. Try this with the RAW image from your second shot above and it should look almost exactly the same as your third image after WB adjustment. All of the G1 images I posted above looked like your second shot initially (although not as saturated nor as orange tinted as yours), but after WB adjustment and further processing they looked almost the same as your 3rd IR image. The IR data is in the G1 images but you have to separate it from the visible. I agree that using a dedicated IR camera is much easier and more versatile, but for an occasional IR image of appropriate subject matter (no subject movement) you can still produce a "true" IR image from the G1 with a bit more processing labor.

Regards,
Carl
 

f6cvalkyrie

Well-known member
Hi, Diane,

this is one of the first pics I shot with my new IR720 filter.
Kitlens 14-45 @ 14mm iso400 0.8sec f3.5
It was a very windy day, you can see the trees moving.

For conversion, I simply adjusted CT for neutral grey leafs, and the sky dropped in like it is now.

This may not be what you expect from IR photography, but I really like this result :



C U,
Rafael
 

GDI

Member
The G1 has no IR sensitivity at all. What you and others are recording are deep red images that gives "similar" IR effect. With a regular red filter, you would get the same on the G1.
I did a simple test - activating and viewing my tv remote through the EVF of the G1. I can clearly see the light from the IR transmitter, so there must be some sensitivity to IR, no?
 
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Vivek

Guest
I did a simple test - activating and viewing my tv remote through the EVF of the G1. I can clearly see the light from the IR transmitter, so there must be some sensitivity to IR, no?
No. What I found, I showed.

(Can you see the LED light from your IR transmitter with your eye?).

BTW, Carl's B+W 092 (695nm 50% transmission) is not equivalent to the Hoya R72 (720nm 50% transmission), it (092) has more red transmission.

FWIW, I disclosed what I found to be the case with the G1 and IR. My intention is not to dismiss what others may find it to be useful or not.

My earlier cameras (Nikon D70, Epson R-D1s- unmodified) had more more noticeable IR sensitivity than a Nikon D80 or a Nikon D40x or an Olympus E-410 or a G1 (all unmodified).
 

GDI

Member
No. What I found, I showed.

(Can you see the LED light from your IR transmitter with your eye?).
No, I can't - it is not visible light. Of course knowing the camera can detect some IR doesn't mean it can detect enough to be practical with an IR pass filter, especially one passing red, as you point out.
 

scho

Well-known member
I am going to surgically remove the AA/IR cut filter in one of my G1s. The camera has no useful UV or IR sensitivity as is. I have done this (surgery) on an E-410 and it is superb (for UV and IR). The NMOS sensor is more sensitive than the CCD sensors I was used to.

Hutec's filter application for Canon DSLRs is neat but I am afraid there is no room for such a possibility with the G1.

Doing IR with f/0.95 on the G1 would be fun.:)
There is no problem getting IR images with filters that cut near the visible red/near IR boundary of approx.700 nm. I actually prefer using either an R72 or B+W 092 instead of a black IR pass filter (eg. B+W 093) because they give you enough visible light in the mix to do false color IR images, such as the ones posted earlier in the thread. You also will have shorter exposure times compared to using IR pass filters that cut well into the IR end of the spectrum.
 

Cindy Flood

Super Moderator
I got my G1 back from Precision Camera. I had it modified with the 665nm option.
These two shots are my first attempt (false color).

Abandoned Schoolhouse --G1 IR and kit lens



Wolf River --G1 IR and kit lens
 
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