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Raw workflow with the E-P1?

jonoslack

Active member
Hi Tim


I keep a K20D as spare and it has a wonderful user interface and a great 300mm lens. It's more fun to use than a 5DII. It's files aren't very good though. :-(
Well, I've not looked at them, but in reality there isn't anywhere to 'fit it in' sensibly. I love the A900, and whether by luck or judgement I have a good and tiny 24-105 Minolta lens for lightweight (it cost £125) - and the zeiss glass for quality. For small and light there's the M8 and the E-P1. Tough to find a reason to go for another system.

Hi Todd
I guess that begs the question, "compared to what?"

The files off my K20d are certainly "better" than from the E-P1 (noise/resolution). But they aren't as good as I've seen from a900 (some of Jono's files). I haven't looked at 5D raw, but have looked at older Nikon (D70) and didn't think those were good at all by comparison.
"better" is a difficult word isn't it! My son has eschewed various cameras and now shoots almost exclusively with an E1 . . . . he likes the files. The A900 files are fab - they still give me a hit every time I open a new one.
 

nostatic

New member
Hi Todd

"better" is a difficult word isn't it! My son has eschewed various cameras and now shoots almost exclusively with an E1 . . . . he likes the files. The A900 files are fab - they still give me a hit every time I open a new one.
The a900 files are wonderful - I just can't bring myself to spend $$$ to get into the system. I'm at a bit of a crossroads with the Pentax (again) as the K7, while a great camera, is just too small for my tastes. I think once you're into dSLR territory, there is a lower limit for size/weight/balance. The K7 with small ltd primes would be awesome. But with a 50-135 it felt too small and unbalanced. And if I have a dSLR for "serious" shooting where I need a great file, then I likely need flexibility. That said the 50-135 is great on the K20d, balances well, and gives a "good enough" file. And it ends up being a lot lighter than the equivalent a900/Zeiss setup.

I love the E-P1 files - mostly because shooting jpg with NR off I get a gritty look at hi-iso. It reminds me of GRD shots I've seen but with much higher rez and more definition. It is like my DLux4 but "better."

Every once in awhile (like now) I get tempted to sell all my Pentax stuff and buy an a900, 24-70 and 135 and call it good, just using the E-P1 and DLux4 for "street" and everyday. Actually if I sold all my Pentax glass it would about pay for at least the Sony body and one lens. *sigh*
 

Godfrey

Well-known member
You are much much much more conscientious about your testing than I am; we both know that, but I've done enough to establish that Aperture suits me best for the cameras I use, both in workflow and results.
And that's fine. It's an excellent application, given what it does, and if you find it a good fit to your work so much the better.

... but right now, as I have an E-P1 I do have to work out some way of dealing with the RAW files. ...
As I've said here and other places, I'm very interested in the E-P1. But until my tools*(Lightroom) support its RAW files, I will not purchase one. Whatever advantage/benefit it might bring me is not realizable if I need to do workarounds. What I have now is perfectly capable of doing the job I need, a new camera like the E-P1 might bring more options but only if it integrates into my workflow seamlessly.


In my opinion, constantly worrying about using only the best RAW converter is a notion of a nature similar to constantly worrying about having the best lens or the best body or the best camera bag, ad nauseam. It does more to get in the way of doing photography than it helps. No camera is perfect. No lens is perfect. No software is perfect. Nothing is perfect.
Couldn't agree more . . . . erm, except that lenses really do matter, and I guess that the Leica 50mm f1.4 'lux and the 75 'cron are as close to perfect as one is likely to get. I fixed on Aperture a couple of years ago as my software of choice, and imperfect though it may be I've seen nothing to make me change my mind.

But if you're spending weeks testing RAW conversion software, and, as you say, they're almost identical, it sounds like you aren't taking your own advice - sounds like ad nauseam to me.
Of course, some things (like good lenses instead of mediocre ones) do make a substantive difference. The question is one of "when to stop?" I passed that point quite a while ago: I really don't need any new lenses to do my photographic work. The bodies continue to advance and as that advancement makes sense, I consider them.

Regards evaluating RAW converters, I made my decisions to go with Camera Raw, and then Lightroom when it came out, several years ago. I test new versions of other RAW converters and development environments to keep abreast of what's happening, mostly ... I have very little intention to change any time soon ... or rather, it will take a HUGE improvement in efficiency, quality, advantage to be worth changing things. I don't "do nothing else and test RAW converters" ... I test them as new versions come up and as I have time and interest, wasting as little time as possible from my work.
 

Robert Campbell

Well-known member
Jono,

If Adobe's ACR/LR do a bad job with 4/3 sensors and their .orf raw files, would they still do a bad job if Adobe's dng converter converted them to dng?
Behind this question was another; does dng conversion do anything more than just change the file format? If I could do, say, .orf > dng > .orf, would the two raw files be absolutely identical? [and I'm thinking of translations between languages, where after a few iterations, the original meaning is totally garbled].
 

jonoslack

Active member
Behind this question was another; does dng conversion do anything more than just change the file format? If I could do, say, .orf > dng > .orf, would the two raw files be absolutely identical? [and I'm thinking of translations between languages, where after a few iterations, the original meaning is totally garbled].
HI Robert
As Godfrey said, a RAW file is a container, and as long as you're passing the information from one container to another it should be fine.

He is much better informed about the technicalities of this. However, I've done serious comparisons with both the A900 and the E3 (which were supported by Adobe RAW converter some time before Aperture chipped in). I've never been able to tell the difference between ORF or ARW files converted to DNG and opened in Aperture, and the same files opened directly in Aperture.

Certainly, with respect to ORF files, if you convert to DNG before opening in Aperture, if you're going to lose anything, then it's two tenths of SFA (as they say).
 

jonoslack

Active member
Regards evaluating RAW converters, I made my decisions to go with Camera Raw, and then Lightroom when it came out, several years ago. I test new versions of other RAW converters and development environments to keep abreast of what's happening, mostly ... I have very little intention to change any time soon ... or rather, it will take a HUGE improvement in efficiency, quality, advantage to be worth changing things. I don't "do nothing else and test RAW converters" ... I test them as new versions come up and as I have time and interest, wasting as little time as possible from my work.
I think that's an excellent post - we are really in a very similar position with a different application. This is a point we really can agree on.

So Let's Do It!
:)
 

Godfrey

Well-known member
Behind this question was another; does dng conversion do anything more than just change the file format? If I could do, say, .orf > dng > .orf, would the two raw files be absolutely identical? [and I'm thinking of translations between languages, where after a few iterations, the original meaning is totally garbled].
Translation from one data structure to another is always a little dicey until proven by lots of testing experience, both in the lab and in the field. Earliest versions of the DNG specification lacked the means to encode various and fluffy bits of the many native RAW files that were not considered "essential" to the RAW data and processing it, so indeed at one time there were several bits lost in the conversion. (None of them significant to processing the DNG file, mind you, since none of the manufacturers' proprietary RAW processing software will process RAW files of any format that are not generated by cameras it supports...)

The DNG file specification has grown since its inception to accommodate a lot of additional bits. Beginning with DNG Specification v1.2, all private data and maker notes are identified by the DNG Converter (and LR and CR) and transformed into well documented token-data constructs inside the DNG file. Of course, it is still the case that only the manufacturers' RAW conversion software knows what to do with many of those bits, and none of them process DNG files not made by the cameras they support ... nor is there any transform possible to take a DNG file back into the original, native RAW file from which it was generated.

What this means is that if you translated all your native RAW E-1 .ORF files into DNG format and disposed of the .ORF files with an early version of DNG Converter, some data might have been lost that some possible DNG compatible application in the future might have been able to use to your advantage, and there's no way to get it back. If you did the same translation with the later or current version of DNG Converter, the possibility exists that you could take advantage of this new capability. The chances of such capability coming about are small, the significance of the advantage is also small (since you have presumably converted to DNG to do your processing with something else already and will be unlikely to need to reprocess again from scratch all your work...).

To future proof your files against possible developments of the DNG specification that *might* include some new data construct or whatever which isn't currently handled well, the only option is to either embed the original native RAW file into the DNG file such that it could be extracted back into the manufacturers' proprietary software in the original, native RAW form, or reprocessed by a later version of DNG Converter into an updated DNG file. This generally doubles the size of the DNG files at least, but if you really really must have absolutely all the data that existed for some once and future moment, it's the way to go.

Of course, all the essential data required for a DNG compatible app to process DNG RAW files is there in the files already. So if you rely upon DNG files for your work, and an application that uses them, there are really no worries at all. The Open Source dcraw converter knows how to convert DNG files too, so even if Adobe dried up and blew away in the wind, source code to interpret DNG files is immortalized on the web.

I archive all my native RAW files onto a separate disk drive, have been doing so since 2003. All my working files are converted to DNG format since the introduction of Camera Raw v2.4. I have never once actually NEEDED to retrieve an original RAW file from the archives ... my only reasons for doing so, to date, have been purely for experimentation and research purposes.
 

Robert Campbell

Well-known member
Thanks for the info. I use LR, and was happy enough with it -- until I started reading here. And I wasn't sure if the extra conversion to dng was worthwhile, even if a 'universal format' seems to be a good thing.
 

Godfrey

Well-known member
Thanks for the info. I use LR, and was happy enough with it -- until I started reading here. And I wasn't sure if the extra conversion to dng was worthwhile, even if a 'universal format' seems to be a good thing.
The conversion to DNG format currently nets three advantages:

- DNG files with lossless compression are often, but not always, a savings in file storage space over native RAW files. It depends to a good degree on the particular camera you're using. Over time, this has the potential to save a lot of disk space.

- DNG files can contain all the metadata (IPTC and rendering instructions) embedded within the files rather than contained in .XMP sidecar files. This reduces the risk of losing edit data by moving files or changing filenames external to Lightroom, and also reduces the number of files in a directory, which on some systems can cause improvements in performance.

- If you use other Adobe Creative Suite tools and write the metadata into the DNG files (LR's "Metadata->Save metadata to file..." command), it can all be consumed and coordinated between all the various other applications that use those files. Same for various other software tools, like Cumulous and Extensis Portfolio, etc.

Then there's the future proofing that a RAW format standard provides, but the immediate benefit of doing that isn't particularly easy to assess.

None of these benefits are so huge as to make doing DNG conversion a rubberstamp Yes at present, but over time and with the proliferation of more and more native RAW formats, and more and more DNG compatible applications, the benefits could be great.

(Lightroom, however, is an excellent product, unequivocally imo. I'd say it's quadrupled my productivity since I started using it, and probably saved me another couple of Terabyte drives in the process.)
 

Robert Campbell

Well-known member
Thanks; of course, saving both the raw and a dng doesn't save space! And my geotagging program writes sidecars even with dng, which is annoying.
 
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