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Leica M9-P Viewfinder framing lines

I have a question for Leica M users. Many years ago I shot Leica M film cameras but eventually sold them off, including four beautiful lenses. I recently came back into the Leica fold, with a new M9P and four lenses. The angle of coverage of three of the lenses does not line up accurately with the frame lines in the viewfinder. All three lenses (28, 50, 90) cover a significantly larger area than that indicated in the viewfinder. I sent the camera and all four lenses into Leica USA and they purportedly fixed this issue. The gear came back and the same exact problem exists. Go to the URL below to see photos that clearly illustrates this problem. Can any of you tell me if this is "normal", or, should the viewfinder framing lines, line up precisely with what the lenses actually "see".

Leica M9-P Viewfinder Tests

Thanks for your input on this.

Mark Weidman
 

jlm

Workshop Member
not only will the lines not exactly match what the sensor records, but also, the alignment of the frames with the image will change with subject distance. With the M9 and the M8 upgrade, Leica re-set the frames to be most accurate with a single subject distance (I forget the distance) similar to the old film camera frameline alignments. Reports have been good for the new framelines
 

250swb

Member
Yes it is normal, viewfinder lines have never matched exactly the image the lens see's, on any M Leica, ever. And neither can Leica adjust anything to make them more accurate. When you send the camera and lenses to Leica for adjustment all they do is separately adjust each part, lens and body, to its own benchmark standards, and not adjust one to the other such as a lens is adjusted to work on a specific camera body.

Steve
 

Brian S

New member
The 75mm framelines are perfect with an 85mm lens, and the 90mm framelines are perfect with a 105mm lens.

The framelines assume the 'worst possible case" and are optimized for closest focus. Once you are past 5feet or so, the framelines cover smaller area than the lens.
 
Thanks for all the valuable input, I appreciate it. Think about it, I sent that same online web gallery to Leica service in New Jersey, and then sent large color prints of the images indicating what I perceived to be a discrepancy. No one at Leica service ever informed me this was "normal" but rather implied they had made repairs and adjustments. I will say, when I shot with M4's and M5's years ago, I am fairly certain the viewfinder frame lines were much closer to the lens coverage than this new M9P camera.

Mark Weidman
 

bradhusick

Active member
As long as your capturing a little more than you think (not less) you can always crop. If you need 100% accuracy I am afraid you will need to shoot an SLR.
 
Thanks again for the comments. I also just read through a long line of posts on another forum related to this topic. Some report that the M9P viewfinder frame lines are only accurate when the subject distance is either one or three meters; that beyond that distance they are not accurate, and that this is a function (flaw?) of all rangefinder systems.
 
It is not a flaw, the FOV of a lens changes during focusing together with the focal length, at the minimum focusing distance the FOV is minumum and increases when focusing towards infinity.
This is the reason why the framelines of the M9, if designed to be accurate at, say, 1 m, when the lens is focused at farther distance will capture a portion of the scene smaller than the lens.
 

250swb

Member
And yet people still buy DSLR's with less than a 100% field of view?

You could say a Leica M9 has more than a 100% field of view, but you just need to use it and gain experience with the framelines rather than sitting on the sidelines waiting for a perfect solution to appear from the clouds. Anybody who knows their lenses and framelines ends up with a good intuition about what is inside or outside of the frame. It hasn't changed in nearly sixty years so I wonder what it is in todays demographics that puts a block on it?

Steve
 

KeithL

Well-known member
And yet people still buy DSLR's with less than a 100% field of view?

You could say a Leica M9 has more than a 100% field of view, but you just need to use it and gain experience with the framelines rather than sitting on the sidelines waiting for a perfect solution to appear from the clouds. Anybody who knows their lenses and framelines ends up with a good intuition about what is inside or outside of the frame.
Thanks for the advice, but I need a tad more than "intuition about what is inside or outside of the frame". If you don't mind I'll sit on the sidelines for now in the hope that Leica will eventually deliver the means to frame as accurately as in the image below.

 

jlm

Workshop Member
by it's very nature, the typical rangefinder is never going to give you an accurate view; nothing new here, this was not a design intent. An electronic viewfinder and it's advantage is what is appealing about the nex-7 and the Fuji pro, still keeping the compactness of a rangefinder body.
 

Gary Clennan

New member
I'm not sure why some get so bent out of shape due to accuracy of framing. There is rarely a case where I need 100% accurate framing. Shoot a little wider and don't worry about a thing. Do a 30sec crop later - easy.
 

KeithL

Well-known member
I'm not sure why some get so bent out of shape due to accuracy of framing. There is rarely a case where I need 100% accurate framing. Shoot a little wider and don't worry about a thing. Do a 30sec crop later - easy.
Thanks, but I'm not into 'point shoot and fix it later'.
 
V

Vivek

Guest
Thanks for the advice, but I need a tad more than "intuition about what is inside or outside of the frame". If you don't mind I'll sit on the sidelines for now in the hope that Leica will eventually deliver the means to frame as accurately as in the image below.
Keith, I love the picture but is that really an appropriate example? Assuming it was take with a Hassy digital, most likely, the camera was tripod bound and the subject very stationary, it is always possible to check how that shot turned out in terms of composition and focus and redo it if something is lacking.

You could do that with an M9 as well.
 

Brian S

New member
The M9 has an LCD display on it. When I need very accurate framing of a static scene, I view the image on the back of the screen, make a correction, and reshoot. The buliding was not running off somewhere.

Rangefinder cameras were typically not used for architectural photography. "In the Day", view cameras were used. SLR manufacturers offered perspective control lenses for this type of work. These days, perspective control adapters exist for "cropped" sensors.

Leica M9, 1938 Zeiss Sonnar "T" 5cm F1.5 at F4:



Leica M8 with C-Sonnar 50mm F1.5, wide-open:



This is the type of shot that I have an easier time getting with a Rangefinder camera compared with my mirrorless EP2 or any of the SLR's. Viewing outside of the frame is a benefit in this situation.
 

KeithL

Well-known member
Keith, I love the picture but is that really an appropriate example? Assuming it was take with a Hassy digital, most likely, the camera was tripod bound and the subject very stationary, it is always possible to check how that shot turned out in terms of composition and focus and redo it if something is lacking.

You could do that with an M9 as well.
Sure, I could compose, shoot, re-compose, shoot, re-compose, shoot...but it sucks the joy out of making images.
 

KeithL

Well-known member
The M9 has an LCD display on it. When I need very accurate framing of a static scene, I view the image on the back of the screen, make a correction, and reshoot. The buliding was not running off somewhere.

Rangefinder cameras were typically not used for architectural photography.
Folks, I'm not expecting the current Leica rangefinders to meet my needs, if they did I'd be using them now. Having said that I am hoping that the M10 will have the means to check for critical framing and focusing pre-capture.

Believe me, I'm not alone.
 
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