Fun With Sony Cameras

[Vivek]

Re: Fun with the A7/7R

My pleasure, Michiel!

 

[Vivek]

Re: Fun with the A7/7R

First tests with the Canon 24mm T/S mkII lens.
I much prefer the overall look of the Sony compared to Nikon D800, colors, mid tones are a lot more in my taste.
But not sure to like what I see at pixel level. Some soft micro contrast mixed with jaggies from LR 5. Really not impressive. Don't know how much of this is related to the Canon lens (that is supposed to be very good) but I suspect LR raw conversion not being optimized at all yet for the Sony files. Image data converter from Sony gives better results at pixel level for what I have seen so far. But these really are 1st tests.
Did anybody else made the same observation ?
(Unfortunately I have no other lens yet to eliminate that variable).

Could you play with the contrast (LR, lowering the contrast)) and see what happens? I know that the EOS lenses have higher contrast (to compensate for the thick layers on their sensors) than most other lenses.

 

[Vivek]

Re: Fun with the A7/7R

My opinion on A7 vs A7R in general :
Get the A7.
It is
cheaper
has faster flash sync
more fps
build feels the same as the A7R
same weight as A7R
picture quality is the same (even though the A7R has more pixels)
usability is better with RF lenses. (much less hassle with magenta cast)
smearing seems to be the same with both A7s
AF is a tiny bit faster
smaller file sizes

I will keep my A7 and my friend with the A7R is about to send it back and getting a A7 too.

I am keeping my A7R and am glad that I went with this than an A7 (still can buy it but very unlikely). Here is why.

One of my snaps.


Untitled by Vivek Iyer, on Flickr
Sony A7R, M Rokkor 28/2.8, f/4, ISO200, 1/500s

100% crop from top (left panel) which tells the story of the trains here as well.


crop by Vivek Iyer, on Flickr

This is a zone focused, hand held shot.

 

[fotoingo]

Re: Fun with the A7/7R

And would be almost the same on A7. lol

36 MP to 24 MP sounds awesome but in reality this is kind of a minor difference.
6000*4000 to 7360*4912 sounds not too awesome, isn't it?

I really thought the difference would be much higher but reality struck me before I bought from Sony, haha.
But if the A7R works for you, everything is good. It is a fine camera indeed.

 

[anGy]

Re: Fun with the A7/7R

Could you play with the contrast (LR, lowering the contrast)) and see what happens? I know that the EOS lenses have higher contrast (to compensate for the thick layers on their sensors) than most other lenses.

Humm, in fact the pictures do lack some contrast in LR. The micro contrast is not very highly set (clarity +10). The problem at pixel level I see seems more related to the 'detail' cursor of the sharpness tool. Only way to reduce jagged edges significantly is to put it to '0'. Thin wires on another picture also clearly shows those jaggies from LR, better controlled in Sony raw developer.

 

[Ron Pfister]

Re: Fun with the A7/7R

My opinion on A7 vs A7R in general :
Get the A7.
…snip...
picture quality is the same (even though the A7R has more pixels)

While I have yet to take any images of my own with the A7R, the A7 and A7R samples I've seen, downloaded and worked with lead me to a different conclusion. I think the examples below, converted from RAW test files obtained from imaging-resource.com, speak for themselves.

From my point of view, the decision between A7 and A7R depends on whether you have a need for 36MP (now or in the foreseeable future), i.e. whether your photographic subjects can benefit from the extra resolution (which IMO is real, and is due to both the higher MP count as well as to the lack of an OLPF).

I'm a little reticent to the size of the A7r files

File size and associated processing speed are fast-moving targets: hard drive capacity and CPU performance are growing at a steady pace, and a file that you may consider large and somewhat unwieldy to process today will be the norm tomorrow. For photographers who process very large numbers of images on a regular basis, this is certainly something to consider, but for the rest of us probably much less so.

 

[Vivek]

Re: Fun with the A7/7R

Humm, in fact the pictures do lack some contrast in LR. The micro contrast is not very highly set (clarity +10). The problem at pixel level I see seems more related to the 'detail' cursor of the sharpness tool. Only way to reduce jagged edges significantly is to put it to '0'. Thin wires on another picture also clearly shows those jaggies from LR, better controlled in Sony raw developer.

I am really poor when it comes to PP. Despite the rudimentary PP I do, I must say that I never liked the clarity tool of LR. I also hope that the LR5.3 RC will improve with the final version.

 

[Vivek]

Re: Fun with the A7/7R

And would be almost the same on A7. lol

36 MP to 24 MP sounds awesome but in reality this is kind of a minor difference.
6000*4000 to 7360*4912 sounds not too awesome, isn't it?

I really thought the difference would be much higher but reality struck me before I bought from Sony, haha.
But if the A7R works for you, everything is good. It is a fine camera indeed.

Fotoingo, There are other factors as well. Run the camera for 1 hour continuously and see where the heat gets dissipated. The whole of the front metal plate of the A7R gets warm. I am not sure how well that happens with the A7.

The crop shown is less than the pixel count differences between the 7 and the 7R.

Oh, I forgot to mention that the adapter used was a Hawk helicoid adapter, the one that apparently attracted big threads and discussions (elsewhere) on how unsharp it would make the pictures because of wobbles.

 

[Nettar]

Re: Fun with the A7/7R

Thank you very much, Vivek and Michiel, for your fascinating images. I wonder whether you could answer a question. Both of you have shot NEX cameras in the past, using relatively quiet shutters. In your street photography, did you notice whether the somewhat noisier A7R caused your subjects to react differently, relative to how they reacted when using the NEX? Nettar

 

[mazor]

Re: Fun with the A7/7R

How about the shutter sound and performance. Doesn't the A7r have a different shutter design from the A7. From what I have read the A7 allows for electronic first curtain, which in turn not only reduces vibrations, but also has faster shutter response time. Also the A7 shutter is meant to be less audible than the A7r

 

[algrove]

Re: Fun with the A7/7R

Anyone tried any WA Leica R lenses yet? Saw the 21-35, but how about fixed WA?

 

[Vivek]

Re: Fun with the A7/7R

Thank you very much, Vivek and Michiel, for your fascinating images. I wonder whether you could answer a question. Both of you have shot NEX cameras in the past, using relatively quiet shutters. In your street photography, did you notice whether the somewhat noisier A7R caused your subjects to react differently, relative to how they reacted when using the NEX? Nettar

Nettar, When I first met Michiel, I handed him the A7R and the couple shots he was taking (I was ~1 meter away), I could not hear the shutter. While I take a shot I always hear it very distinctly.

For this shot: http://www.getdpi.com/forum/550498-post343.html

I did not hear the shutter (approaching tram) at all. Hope, this gives an idea.

 

[Ron Pfister]

Re: Fun with the A7/7R

How about the shutter sound and performance. Doesn't the A7r have a different shutter design from the A7. From what I have read the A7 allows for electronic first curtain, which in turn not only reduces vibrations, but also has faster shutter response time. Also the A7 shutter is meant to be less audible than the A7r

My testing with the NEX-7 showed that the electronic first curtain certainly does help reduce vibrations. However, I found the difference to only be relevant when shooting from a tripod at shutter speeds between 1/f and ~1.5s. Shorter and longer exposures are largely unaffected. Since the A7R uses a different shutter mechanism, its effect on camera shake will likely be considerably different. Whether that's for the better or worse is impossible to tell without testing...

 

[Cindy Flood]

Re: Fun with the A7/7R

A7r and Zeiss 24-70 f/2.8 on LA-E4 @70mm f/8

Please let me know if you see magenta shift on the left side.

 

[Michiel Schierbeek]

Re: Fun with the A7/7R

While I have yet to take any images of my own with the A7R, the A7 and A7R samples I've seen, downloaded and worked with lead me to a different conclusion. I think the examples below, converted from RAW test files obtained from imaging-resource.com, speak for themselves.

From my point of view, the decision between A7 and A7R depends on whether you have a need for 36MP (now or in the foreseeable future), i.e. whether your photographic subjects can benefit from the extra resolution (which IMO is real, and is due to both the higher MP count as well as to the lack of an OLPF).



File size and associated processing speed are fast-moving targets: hard drive capacity and CPU performance are growing at a steady pace, and a file that you may consider large and somewhat unwieldy to process today will be the norm tomorrow. For photographers who process very large numbers of images on a regular basis, this is certainly something to consider, but for the rest of us probably much less so.

These tests have to be so secure to really tell the truth. To me it looks like they have diffrent focus points. How can it be that the top of the third layer of cloth in the A7r picture looks worse compared to the A7, the second layer better and the top layer much better?

Pixel peeping it's hard, also because of the different magnification because of the difference in amount of pixels between the 2 cameras.

 

[tashley]

Re: Fun with the A7/7R

Hi Angy,

I did indeed mention the jaggies further up the thread and postulate that it relates to the LR 5.3 RC processing. I can even see them on a Retina at 1:1 so it's not just a 100% thing and they annoy me. I agree with you that the pixel level detail is not as stellar as I expected (why I suggested to Jono that he might wait but as usual he ignored me!).

As for the mid range, maybe, I'm not sure, but it does look as if they might have put some more 'math in the middle' because the shadows aren't as clean as a D800… which could also be because the sensor is on all the time and therefore on average warmer...

First tests with the Canon 24mm T/S mkII lens.
I much prefer the overall look of the Sony compared to Nikon D800, colors, mid tones are a lot more in my taste.
But not sure to like what I see at pixel level. Some soft micro contrast mixed with jaggies from LR 5. Really not impressive. Don't know how much of this is related to the Canon lens (that is supposed to be very good) but I suspect LR raw conversion not being optimized at all yet for the Sony files. Image data converter from Sony gives better results at pixel level for what I have seen so far. But these really are 1st tests.
Did anybody else made the same observation ?
(Unfortunately I have no other lens yet to eliminate that variable).

 

[Ron Pfister]

Re: Fun with the A7/7R

A7r and Zeiss 24-70 f/2.8 on LA-E4 @70mm f/8

Please let me know if you see magenta shift on the left side.

Again, it is measurable, but whether it is of practical significance is debatable.

 

[Vivek]

Re: Fun with the A7/7R

… which could also be because the sensor is on all the time and therefore on average warmer...

Agree.

I must add here that those who want to do tripod mounted work should consider contacting places that offer modifications (active cooling). Creative amateur astronomers have done wonderful things with their Canon cams. I have a project ongoing for this to suit my needs.

 

[Ron Pfister]

Re: Fun with the A7/7R

These tests have to be so secure to really tell the truth. To me it looks like they have diffrent focus points. How can it be that the top of the third layer of cloth in the A7r picture looks worse compared to the A7, the second layer better and the top layer much better?

Pixel peeping it's hard, also because of the different magnification because of the difference in amount of pixels between the 2 cameras.

I fully agree. Such tests are challenging even when comparing the same camera/lens combination to itself. OTOH, despite the slight difference in focus points between the images, I would say it's undebatable that the A7R image shows significantly more detail and to me, it also shows more 'presence' and three-dimensionality.

 

[docmoore]

Re: Fun with the A7/7R

A7r and Zeiss 24-70 f/2.8 on LA-E4 @70mm f/8

Please let me know if you see magenta shift on the left side.

Looks like it in the clouds...so go to PS and use the color sampler...read on lt and rt in the sky/clouds and in the trees....should show a shift in R values if this is so.

Bob