The 5D replacement rumor mill...

[cmb_]

Despite all the well deserved fanfare over the recent Nikon releases, I have not sold my R to EOS adapters or my C/Y to EOS adapters yet!

 

[jonoslack]

Again, this may or may not be the case. With the past and existing sensors and how they were configured with different microlenses, we could see diffraction limits kicking in, especially with overaggressive AA filters. If Canon, and this is a big if, went to a newer sensor design (like placing the electronics beneath the photosites rather than inside as most CMOS sensors are built), and if the microlenses are reconfigured to better match the photosites on the sensors, it may be very possible to reduce some of those diffraction issues the kick in hard on some smaller pixel sensors now.

Until we start to see actual results, it may be premature to dismiss what this newer camera may or may not be able to do. I am not being a fanboy or anything like that here, as that is not my nature by a long shot. I just think that folks may want to hold judgment and decisions a bit longer until they actually see what some of the newer tech really is able to deliver. It may not amount to anything different, or it could be a very significant improvement that starts to rewrite some of our "rules" about how capable some things may be. My first inclination is to agree that diffraction could become a player, but I am not convinced it will be until we start to see actual shots. Even on the MF side of things where they have a lot more sensor real estate to work with, pixels are getting smaller, and IQ is not getting worse.

LJ

I quite agree. I think there is a way to go with sensor technology and smaller phototsites. A few years ago the D3 would have been unthinkable.

 

[asabet]

Of course with that much resolution you run into serious diffraction issues. Might be worth keeping at least one of my original 5D's just for when I have to stop down past f11!

Hi Ben, this is a common misconception about the effects of diffraction. A given lens is diffraction limited at a particular f-stop independent of sensor pixel pitch. Smaller pixels mean that lens diffraction becomes limiting to overall resolution capture at a lower f-stop, but this is only because there is enough sensor resolution to perceive the lens diffraction. If the sensor pixels are large, then sensor pixels are the weak link; ie, the pixel pitch will limit capture to a lower resolution than the limit otherwise imposed by diffraction. If the sensor pixels are small, then they will no longer be resolution limiting and diffraction comes more into play.

For example, a typical zoom might be diffraction limited at f/8. The Canon 5D user won't notice the diffraction effects until f/16, whereas a 1Ds III user will notice detail loss at f/11 only because they had the higher detail to begin with! At the higher f-numbers, one loses some of the resolution advantage of the smaller pixel pitch, but at no point does it become a resolution disadvantage.

I quite agree. I think there is a way to go with sensor technology and smaller phototsites. A few years ago the D3 would have been unthinkable.

Hi Jono, I agree also. However, if the Canon 50D has a real 1-1.5 stop advantage over the 40D in high ISO noise (as claimed by Chuck Westfall), then we are talking about a dramatic step forward. The 50D has a pixel pitch similar to the E-420. This kind of technology leap would give the E-420 a D300 quality high ISO performance.

 

[robmac]

Agree that sensor tech will obviously keep moving fwd to try and squeeze the best balance of resolution vs noise vs DR, etc on a given chunk of sensor real estate.

That said, I do wish C would spend more effort improving the non-sensor aspects of their DSLRs (ergonomics, switchology, ease of MLU, customizable function buttons, etc) - and on their shorter glass (and QC of same).

That said, when you look at where the AVERAGE customer apparently puts THEIR priorities (a.k.a. $$$): ever more MP on same sensor (even though never need them) + noise-free, flash-free, images of black cats in coal cellars at midnight using wide-range IS zooms, one could also argue they are focused where they should be - from a sales perspective.

 

[Dale Allyn]

Rob,

I agree, but how hard would it be to offer a firmware hack that allowed us to use the print button as a user programmed button? I've never met a single person to have used the print button, nor read of it in consumer forums, flickr groups, etc. Sure I'm probably missing something, but literally hundreds of people ask for it to be programable as MLU.

I'm thinking (hoping) that between Photokina and the show in Feb. '09 that Canon will shake off the fog and step up on several issues.

 

[LJL]

Dale,
I have to agree with you here. My personal thoughts about why Canon is so brickheaded about the "Print" button go to some odd internal agreement within the company or something between the printer division and the camera division. All of the cameras have or get this button that I have yet to see anybody outside of a Canon printer commercial use.

If they insist on its presence, then offer the user programable option for another button, or just put a new button on just for that purpose so folks could program it to MLU, or whatever else they wanted/needed that could be programmed.

LJ

 

[Terry]

Rob,

I agree, but how hard would it be to offer a firmware hack that allowed us to use the print button as a user programmed button? I've never met a single person to have used the print button, nor read of it in consumer forums, flickr groups, etc. Sure I'm probably missing something, but literally hundreds of people ask for it to be programable as MLU.

I'm thinking (hoping) that between Photokina and the show in Feb. '09 that Canon will shake off the fog and step up on several issues.

The 50D allows you to use that button for a user defined function so I can't imagine it won't be on all of their higher end cameras going forward.

 

[Dale Allyn]

Thanks, Terry, I didn't realize that about the 50D. It would be great if it is also on the 5D update.

 

[Mike Hatam]

Here is what I've heard...

Canon EOS 7D
16-21MP FF sensor
Digic IV
9-point AF (all cross-type)
Also shoots HD video!
6 fps
1.5 stops improvement in noise over 5D
All the other "goodies" from the 50D (new LCD, live-view modes, micro AF adjustments, etc)

I believe we'll see this camera announced on Tuesday, September 16th.

I hear that Canon also has another D-SLR to be announced this fall. I don't think it's a 1-series, but don't know any more details.

Mike

 

[robmac]

The DP button on the 50 can be programmed, but if they weren't so $%^ idiotic, you could be programmed (in combo with a second key press) for more than 1 function. It's progress, but that has to be the least used button in Canon camera history. Still don't think it can be used for MLU, though I think you cna move MLU further up the menus stack.

5DII -- Sounds like they're using the gapless micro lenses. Will be interesting to see what they do re: the AA filter. As for the AF system - we'll have to see.

 

[Jack]

Sidebar: Jono --- *LOVE* the "Strawberry Moose" avatar!!!

 

[LJL]

Mike,
Hope your specs and dates are right. With respect to the HD movies.....if true, let's hope they get it a bit more right than Nikon with the D90, with respect to frame rate and audio capture (stereo mics, or at least a stereo jack). I really do NOT expect that, but it would be a definite nice touch. This is a high end still camera, so that SHOULD be the focus, and not try to do everything with respect to movies. However, folks are picking up things like the Canon S5 and using that, since it takes very nice stills, and is able to record very good quality video with stereo sound, all in a more modest package and price range. Not 35mm FF image capture for sure, but a nice mix of still and good video for casual use.

While it is interesting to see the melding of the two media (still and video) into one device, and as some predict, that may become the way of the future, personally, I am happy carry two separate devices that each does a great job, rather than one device that does two "O.K." jobs. Just my opinion. (I have found that it takes a completely different "headset" to shoot each, and combining them into a single device, though convenient, does not really change the capture/composition planning and such. The RED camera can do an outstanding job on the video while each frame is usable as a good still also, but at a huge cost. At the prices we are quibbling over for DSLRs, we should not be expecting that same sort of capability for a long time to come.)

LJ

 

[rexyinc]

Just spoke to one of the engineers ( his a mate and client of mine ) of the upcoming 3d & 7d's ( the 5d replacements ) he said they will look into adding HD video to the next generation.. ie: way too late now to add a major feature like this to the units pitty as I had a whole list of 'must haves' I wanted added to the video feature.. and the res is about 16mps. just relax for another two weeks okays.

Tony

Here is what I've heard...

Canon EOS 7D
16-21MP FF sensor
Digic IV
9-point AF (all cross-type)
Also shoots HD video!
6 fps
1.5 stops improvement in noise over 5D
All the other "goodies" from the 50D (new LCD, live-view modes, micro AF adjustments, etc)

I believe we'll see this camera announced on Tuesday, September 16th.

I hear that Canon also has another D-SLR to be announced this fall. I don't think it's a 1-series, but don't know any more details.

Mike

 

[Terry]

Interesting that you are using plural replacements. That's one thing that might be a surprise.

 

[Dale Allyn]

Interesting, the interest in video in a mid to upper-range DSLR... I guess I'm really out of the loop. I would cheerfully forfeit any video feature and add $500 or more to get a camera with better design and engineering details for still photography. If I want VDO I'll buy a competent VDO camera. I really am at a loss to understand this direction. On an entry level/mid-consumer camera... okay, but on a $3,000 or higher still camera? Please, give me weather sealing, MLU, fantastic view finder, great AF (wider placement and more AF points, plus accuracy)... Yes, a 12 to 16 MP 1Ds3 without the ginormous form-factor and a few intelligent improvements still. Oh, and lighten up on the AA a bit, would ya? Charge $5,000 if you want, Canon, and quit worrying about cannibalizing 1Ds3 sales because other makers (read "Nikon") are doing the cannibalizing for you. Make it up in volume.

Heehee. Sometimes I get a little ramped up. Sorry.

Looking forward to the new releases.

 

[Ben Rubinstein]

Just spoke to one of the engineers ( his a mate and client of mine ) of the upcoming 3d & 7d's ( the 5d replacements ) he said they will look into adding HD video to the next generation.. ie: way too late now to add a major feature like this to the units pitty as I had a whole list of 'must haves' I wanted added to the video feature.. and the res is about 16mps. just relax for another two weeks okays.

Tony

So the two tier replacement is fact?

 

[rexyinc]

yes sir, a basic budget one and one we actually will want to use not sure if they both get released the same time, that's up to the marketing dept. The 3d will be a higher spec'd model. I won't say much more ok.. Just wait another two weeks

BTW they monitor all these forums very closely.. and boy do they have a good laugh at some of the threads and comments haha.

So the two tier replacement is fact?

 

[Ben Rubinstein]

Just as we will laugh at them if the 5D mkII is about as revolutionary and badly priced as the 50D. Laugh all the way to the Nikon bank.

 

[asabet]

Assuming that the 5D replacement is 21MP and great at high ISO, there's one more thing Canon can do to make it a smash hit. Release a great 24-70/2.8 IS version for the same price or less than the non-stabilized Nikon version. I would buy the Nikon today, but I can't see paying $1700 for a non-stabilized, huge standard zoom.

 

[LJL]

Just as we will laugh at them if the 5D mkII is about as revolutionary and badly priced as the 50D. Laugh all the way to the Nikon bank.

Sorry, but I must be missing your point, Ben. If you are not a Canon owner, and do not like what they offer, why bother with them? If you are a Canon user, there is a lot of possibly good news on the way, so what is the issue. The 50D is not such a bad camera or deal if you really look at what you are getting. Lots of folks seem to think this the case. The 5D has been a very venerable offering for quite a long time, and any upgrade will most likely be substantial, and probably offer quite a bit of interesting things.

No point in bashing Canon in favor of Nikon on this forum, as folks are not of that nature here. We all have our preferences. Some of us are gear agnostic. Some of us have a lot invested in some systems and lines of gear, so there may be some cheering in one camp a bit more/less than another. If folks want to constantly be switching out gear for what they think is the latest and greatest, that is their choice. Personally, I like seeing the competition among manufacturers, as it does bring about better offerings for all of us, most of the time. In the end, if the gear does not meet your needs, do not bother buying it. Nice to have choices.

LJ