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Thread: The D800 has competition - resolution is not the king anymore in MF

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    The D800 has competition - resolution is not the king anymore in MF

    46.1 MP Canon EOS-3D X to be announced before PhotoPlus ? | Camera News at Cameraegg

    It looks like the pixel wars are not over (also 16 bit). Interesting.

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    Senior Member malmac's Avatar
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    Re: The D800 has competition - resolution is not the king anymore in MF

    On the assumption that this is true - as a Canon and Phase 1 user, this would certainly find a place in my camera bag.

    Would I sell my Phase 1 gear - NO.

    I am also pleased to see the camera come out as a full bodied DSLR - if it carries over the features of my 1DMk4, I will be a very happy boy.

    Thanks Canon for turning on the light at the end of my tunnel - was looking a bit gloomy for a bit there.


    Mal

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    Re: The D800 has competition - resolution is not the king anymore in MF

    Quote Originally Posted by malmac View Post
    if it carries over the features of my 1DMk4, I will be a very happy boy.

    Mal
    What features in particular?
    Thanks!
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    Re: The D800 has competition - resolution is not the king anymore in MF

    Whilst I don't doubt this will be a great camera, MF will of course remain the "king" of resolution until someone in 35mm land brings out a sensor with more than 80MP.

    Note that would require a pixel size of 3.3 microns.

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    Re: The D800 has competition - resolution is not the king anymore in MF

    So, Canon pass over Photokina (the biggest photo event in the world) for a release of their much anticipated D800 quasher and decide to instead reveal a watered down consumer camera in the 6D.

    Only a month later they announced the most eagerly anticipated camera in recent years at a photo show that anyone outside of the US has no idea what it is????

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    Senior Member malmac's Avatar
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    Re: The D800 has competition - resolution is not the king anymore in MF

    Quote Originally Posted by pophoto View Post
    What features in particular?
    Thanks!
    I love the simplicity of controlling the 1D when compared with say my 5D2.

    The camera always feels good in my hand when working with it - well blanced.

    The focus system is really easy to use, except I dont really like the way Canon use a small switch for auto Vs manual focus where as the Phase one has a traditional ring system.

    Just a few points as an example.

    Mal
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    Re: The D800 has competition - resolution is not the king anymore in MF

    Quote Originally Posted by gazwas View Post
    So, Canon pass over Photokina (the biggest photo event in the world) for a release of their much anticipated D800 quasher and decide to instead reveal a watered down consumer camera in the 6D.

    Only a month later they announced the most eagerly anticipated camera in recent years at a photo show that anyone outside of the US has no idea what it is????
    Not too unsual these days. Canon high-end cameras are announced many months before they are released and not always at big shows. Consumer products gain more from being released at big shows.

    It should be noted though that Nikon rumors have recently been much more accurate than Canon rumors. So this could be all wrong... if I would make a guess though I think it is true.

    I don't know about "most eagerly anticipated", high MP count is crossing over to the tiny MF land. Eagerly anticipated by me and other MF users perhaps, but we are not so many. The masses in DSLR land talk about high ISO and high ISO only, and Canon has delivered quite well on that already.

    With the D800 there may have been a change though. Canon fanboys want a camera to hit Nikon fanboys over the head . I think Canon regard a high MP DSLR as a niche camera and don't expect to sell that many of them. They may be proven wrong though... the D800 has probably raised the interest of high resolution in DSLR land.

    Remains to be seen if Canon can match Sony at base ISO. Rumors talk about a somewhat new sensor design though, so maybe they're up to something. The 16 bit rumor is promising, probably all fake like MF 16 bit of course, but I don't think they would have the guts to put in 16 bit there if the noise characteristics at base ISO is like 5D mark 3.

    It shall be highly interesting to see how Canon lens lineup performs with this kind of resolution. Concerning resolution I think Canon has a better lineup than Nikon.

    If they'd release a 35mm tilt-shift and update the 45 and 90 I think it can be painful to compare that system with my Schneider-based 33 megapixel MF system... I like my tech camera and the slow peaceful workflow, but if DSLRs start performing almost as good as the tech system I can afford it will be a tough one to defend. I almost hope that it will not perform that good so I don't have to face that tough decision if I should continue with MF or concentrate my funds on my Canon system :-). I don't really have enough money to have two systems with too large overlaps. Not likely to see that important 35mm though, and I don't think the 24mm+1.4x combination many use today will be good enough for me.
    Last edited by torger; 23rd September 2012 at 05:27.

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    Senior Member kdphotography's Avatar
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    Re: The D800 has competition - resolution is not the king anymore in MF

    A higher megapixel update to the 1Ds Mark III would be a welcome update for me----assuming similar build qualities.

    A good high-end (capabilities) DSLR has always been a good complement to a MFDB, rather than making a choice between one format or the other. It's having the best tool for the job---er, and sometimes on these fora overseen by Dante, having all the tools...

    For now, imho, the D800 is the perfect complement to a current generation MFDB. I'm entrenched in Canon lenses, so I eagerly await to see what Canon's response will actually be to Nikon's D800, and offer a similar ideal MFDB complement.

    ken

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    Re: The D800 has competition - resolution is not the king anymore in MF

    Why 16-bit? These are going to be really small pixels and the well capacity must be limited.

    BTW, when did 35mm become medium format? Shouldn't this be in the Canon forum?

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    Re: The D800 has competition - resolution is not the king anymore in MF

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    Why 16-bit? These are going to be really small pixels and the well capacity must be limited.
    Probably just a marketing trick. Pixels wont be insanely small though. It will be 4.3 um pixels if I calculated correctly, the IQ180 has 5.17um.

    A D800 has ~45000 full well capacity on 4.7 micron. If Canon can keep that efficiency on 4.3 that will be ~39000, and to represent that number you need 16 bit. However there is noise at the bottom so you don't really need 16 bit anyway, and this has always been true with MF too, therefore MFDB makers have been much criticized for talking about "16 bit image quality", since it is, well, a lie.

    Not the whole area of the pixel captures photons, this was even worse in older sensors. A H3D-50 with 5.93um pixels has only ~39000, that is the same as Canon might get, and actually less than the D800. So in practice if we mask away all sensor area that is not used for capturing photons a 48x36mm H3D-50 is actually *smaller* than a 36x24mm D800.

    MF sensor tech need to stay on the frontline of technology too, they don't get *that* much for free by being larger.

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    Re: The D800 has competition - resolution is not the king anymore in MF

    If only this is true!
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    Re: The D800 has competition - resolution is not the king anymore in MF

    Quote Originally Posted by malmac View Post
    Would I sell my Phase 1 gear - NO.
    Mal,

    We (Phase One DB owners) all seem to be waiting for the "revolutionary" Phase One camera to replace the aging 645DF (and DF+). Otherwise, our IQ180 backs will become expensive paperweights. If Canon does introduce an EOS-3D X, I predict that your Phase One kit will get little use. Spoken by a guy who rarely uses his MF kit now that he has a D800E. Just sayin'.

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    Re: The D800 has competition - resolution is not the king anymore in MF

    "BTW, when did 35mm become medium format? Shouldn't this be in the Canon forum?"

    Too late now. I complained about this when cell phone cameras were talked about here. It should be Medium Format Systems, Digital Backs, and Anything with Lots of Pixels, or Which Might Irritate MF Owners.
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    Re: The D800 has competition - resolution is not the king anymore in MF

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Colson View Post
    Mal,

    We (Phase One DB owners) all seem to be waiting for the "revolutionary" Phase One camera to replace the aging 645DF (and DF+). Otherwise, our IQ180 backs will become expensive paperweights. If Canon does introduce an EOS-3D X, I predict that your Phase One kit will get little use. Spoken by a guy who rarely uses his MF kit now that he has a D800E. Just sayin'.

    Joe
    Worth mentioning Joe that there are of course plenty of Phase One DB owners who have no need for the Phase One body.

    Regards,

    Gerald.
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    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
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    Re: The D800 has competition - resolution is not the king anymore in MF

    As anyone who has used the D800 will know, it's the system resolution which counts, not just the sensor, and if the lenses are not up to scratch you are just wasting the sensor. How many Canon lenses do you think will be sharp from edge to edge at most or all apertures on a 46MP sensor?

    Apart from that, Canon's 5D3 pricing leads me to believe that this camera will be pretty pricey.

    And yes, this thread really does belong in the Canon forum.
    http://www.graham-mitchell.com Graham Mitchell
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    Re: The D800 has competition - resolution is not the king anymore in MF

    To me it's the system overall DR. So far Canon still seems to have the pattern noise/color problems in low iso/shadows and in high iso. Lloyd Chambers shots with the 1dx show it seems to also follow this. My brief shooting with the 5D MIII produced the same noise issues.

    If Canon can pull of 41, 46 whatever with a much improved overall DR, then they will have a real contender.

    Price point/based on photos tell me more in the 6 to 7K price range however. But still will be a one of a kind for now.

    Paul

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    Re: The D800 has competition - resolution is not the king anymore in MF

    Quote Originally Posted by stephengilbert View Post
    ... Which Might Irritate MF Owners.[/I]
    Life is too short to be irritated by a thread posted in the "wrong" area, don't you think?

    One of the arguments made over time (in favor) of the MF was the high pixel count (for one). Second, the D800 as well as the Lunar it's been discussed in the MF section.

    That's the reason I didn't ask the moderators to move the thread when I noticed it was posted in the MF are. Also, I didn't know people were THAT sensitive.

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    Senior Member malmac's Avatar
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    Re: The D800 has competition - resolution is not the king anymore in MF

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Colson View Post
    Mal,

    We (Phase One DB owners) all seem to be waiting for the "revolutionary" Phase One camera to replace the aging 645DF (and DF+). Otherwise, our IQ180 backs will become expensive paperweights. If Canon does introduce an EOS-3D X, I predict that your Phase One kit will get little use. Spoken by a guy who rarely uses his MF kit now that he has a D800E. Just sayin'.

    Joe
    Joe

    You may be right and only the future will tell - what will happen for me is that I will find it a lot lot harder to talk myself into buying additional lenses for the Phase 1 when I have a pretty good line up of Canon lenses.

    I have considered the idea of buying a T/S lens for the Cambo but that is the camera system which may really struggle for attention - as 99% of the time I prefer to use the Phase 1.


    Mal

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    Workshop Member Bryan Stephens's Avatar
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    Re: The D800 has competition - resolution is not the king anymore in MF

    Just my two cents...... It is one thing to have the camera with the high MP, but you also need the extreme high quality glass to get the best results. I may be wrong, but it seems that the camera companies are really pushing the boundaries with more MP, which is great as a photographer, but the lenses seem to lag somewhat as far as advancement.

    Any thoughts?
    Bryan

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    Re: The D800 has competition - resolution is not the king anymore in MF

    Quote Originally Posted by Bryan Stephens View Post
    I may be wrong, but it seems that the camera companies are really pushing the boundaries with more MP, which is great as a photographer, but the lenses seem to lag somewhat as far as advancement.

    Any thoughts?
    Bryan,

    Megapixel count, as well as in-camera features (GPS, auto-focus, wireless, etc.), get driven by advances in silicon device design and manufacture. So advances occur at a more rapid rate because similar technology goes into smartphones, tablets, PCs, LED-LCD TVs and other consumer electronics products. Lens design, on the other hand, is a more limited science, bordering on art, that is practiced to perfection by fewer labs and manufacturers around the world. The market, and scale of production, is smaller and the margins are thinner. So lenses do lag. It likely will be a fact of life until some genius discovers how to replace the lens with a chunk of silicon.

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    Re: The D800 has competition - resolution is not the king anymore in MF

    Quote Originally Posted by stephengilbert View Post
    "BTW, when did 35mm become medium format? Shouldn't this be in the Canon forum?"

    Too late now. I complained about this when cell phone cameras were talked about here. It should be Medium Format Systems, Digital Backs, and Anything with Lots of Pixels, or Which Might Irritate MF Owners.

    You must be a devoted MFD user...It's relevant when a few (Nikon) 35mm DSLR are rated better than several of the most expensive MFD sensors, hence the title. It's useful because it might contain discussions that would educate someone interested in MFD.
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    Member Richard Osbourne's Avatar
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    Re: The D800 has competition - resolution is not the king anymore in MF

    I'm certainly interested in this, having struggled with an old AFD for my P45+. I really miss the sheer all-round competence, engineering excellence and total reliability of my 1DsIII (and all the 1Ds series cameras I had). If Canon can get close to the colours and tonality of the Phase back, it will be a great achievement and I'll definitely have one.

    I think the 24 TS-E II will work very well with this camera - it was startlingly sharp when used on a Hartblei HCam with P45+. OK, pixel pitches are not close to this rumoured camera, but I suspect more MPixels won't be wasted. And 50 F1.2, 85 F1.2, 70-200II, 24-70II etc. will be good too.

    Of course, there is one spectre that no-one has mentioned: diffraction. I suspect F7.1 will be the sharpest aperture so to get decent depth of field will require T/S lenses. I'd like a 35 TS-E too. Certainly the old 45 and 90, whilst sharp, are a long way behind.

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    Re: The D800 has competition - resolution is not the king anymore in MF

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Osbourne View Post
    I think the 24 TS-E II will work very well with this camera - it was startlingly sharp when used on a Hartblei HCam with P45+. OK, pixel pitches are not close to this rumoured camera, but I suspect more MPixels won't be wasted. And 50 F1.2, 85 F1.2, 70-200II, 24-70II etc. will be good too.
    I don't think the 50 f1.2 will be so good on it but certainly ok, but the rest you have listed will be, and in particular the newly released 24-70L II, which far (relatively) exceeds the resolution of the 24 TS-E II, and of course others in its range.

    Rumors certainly suggest a newly developed sensor which is superior to the 50MP sensor they have displayed previously and targets at performing at higher ISOs. Certainly news I welcome. Gapless photosites on the 1DX have shown it is able to retain the details going up in ISO, to retain a tighter image than even the 5DMark3, however, resolution is resolution. I won't say the the 1DX makes up for the difference in resolution with the 5D3, but it does something a little bit different which I do like, but the increase of 46MP over the 36MP from the D800, I will be interested to see how this translate especially when we are further shrinking the pixel pitch.
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    Re: The D800 has competition - resolution is not the king anymore in MF

    The 46MP image will give whopping 13% increase in resolving power over 36MP and a 28% increase in file size...

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    Re: The D800 has competition - resolution is not the king anymore in MF

    Paraphrasing Mal:

    Would I finally buy my first DMF back if this camera is a comparable leap in IQ like it was from the 5Dc to the 5D2? - NO

    I bet the 17 and 24II TS glass is good for 46mp. More new TS's are coming soon. Zeiss is getting ready for the megapixel dslr's!

    Eduardo


    Would I sell my Phase 1 gear - NO.

    I am also pleased to see the camera come out as a full bodied DSLR - if it carries over the features of my 1DMk4, I will be a very happy boy.

    Thanks Canon for turning on the light at the end of my tunnel - was looking a bit gloomy for a bit there.


    Mal[/QUOTE]

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    Member Stan ROX's Avatar
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    Re: The D800 has competition - resolution is not the king anymore in MF

    I had almost every piece of glass Canon manufactures for the EOS-System. Most of them will not perform up to the needs of a sensor with almost 50 MP.

    Zeiss lenses may keep up - but are MF.

    Stay calm lets see what Photoplus 2012 will bring. I don't believe in this.

    S.

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    Re: The D800 has competition - resolution is not the king anymore in MF

    it is just me that think that is a terrible fake ?

    50mm 1.8 lens with 40m 1.2 L written on the barrel ?!

    body looks like a badly squashed 1D ?

    and I agree with the rest of the posters - so Canon is taking a bash with the D800 and Canon users are clamouring for higher MP, they "forget" to announce this at Photokina - biggest photo fair in the world and are going to make a preview on a US fair that no one outside the US ever heard ? hmmmm right.

    And if it wasnt finished, the body should be by now. Hasseblad did present ( unfortunately ) the Lunar and it was NOWHERE finished. Actually was terribly finished.

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    Re: The D800 has competition - resolution is not the king anymore in MF

    this was a low light shot from my 5d mrkii, blew away my friends version with D800



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    Re: The D800 has competition - resolution is not the king anymore in MF

    Quote Originally Posted by gmeyersphoto View Post
    this was a low light shot from my 5d mrkii, blew away my friends version with D800


    Think the operator of the d800 may not be as good as you.

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    Re: The D800 has competition - resolution is not the king anymore in MF

    >Think the operator of the d800 may not be as good as you.

    How can we judge anything from such a small image?
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    Re: The D800 has competition - resolution is not the king anymore in MF

    Quote Originally Posted by ustein View Post
    >Think the operator of the d800 may not be as good as you.

    How can we judge anything from such a small image?
    I think the idea gmeyersphoto was trying to put across is that the Canon has some artistic effect, ie feeling good with the camera has allowed emotion to show through photography, whist the d800 operator was maybe too occupied with mega pixels.

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    Re: The D800 has competition - resolution is not the king anymore in MF

    Quote Originally Posted by mazor View Post
    I think the idea gmeyersphoto was trying to put across is that the Canon has some artistic effect, ie feeling good with the camera has allowed emotion to show through photography, whist the d800 operator was maybe too occupied with mega pixels.
    Hmmm, possibly, alternatively he's just having a grin

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: The D800 has competition - resolution is not the king anymore in MF

    October 24-October 27 - Photoplus NYC.

    mmmmmmmm - now where is that new Canon 3Dx camera this thread started talking about?

    Maybe that was 2013?

    I'll believe it when I see it.


    Mal

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    Re: The D800 has competition - resolution is not the king anymore in MF

    Maybe Canon is still developing some really fancy noise reduction algorithm to counter act noise developed from having such small pixels. Prepare for super mushy watercolors.. lol

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    Re: The D800 has competition - resolution is not the king anymore in MF

    November, December, NEW YEAR, January -

    It feels like HIDE n SEEK as a child. Will anyone ever find where Canon have hidden the press release for a full frame high resolution (30+ Mp) camera?

    Mal

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    Re: The D800 has competition - resolution is not the king anymore in MF

    I've lost faith that Canon is interested in this race. Their C300 and C500 video cameras seem to be their flagships right now.

    I'm also not sure Canon has the resources to compete with Sony at the moment, who I believe makes the sensor for the Nikon. The sensor in the D800E is kicking butt in the way of dynamic range and shadow noise. I'm also skeptical that Canon's current lens line up can perform well enough for a 40mp sensor, (not unlike many of Nikon's current lenses). I have been using them both and hoping for a high MP Canon or some high quality shift lenses from Nikon. It's very ironic that Nikon has the body but Canon has the lenses for a great architectural or landscape system. Right now Canon would probably sell a ton of their TSE lenses if they made them in a Nikon mount! I wonder why Schneider, Rodenstock or Zeiss doesn't make a very high quality 17 and 24mm tilt shift lens. I tested the old Schneider 28 a while back and was not impressed.
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    Re: The D800 has competition - resolution is not the king anymore in MF

    Yes, I find it very perplexing. I have the D800E and I use the 45mm PC-E and get good results. When I need a wider viewpoint, I reach for my Canon 24mm TS-E MKII.
    I decided not to bother with the Nikon 24mm after all the bad reviews I read here.
    I would love to see Rodenstock, Schneider or Zeiss produce a 24mm with resolution similar to the Rodenstock 23mm !!!
    Perhaps I am dreaming.
    Let's keep our fingers crossed.

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    Re: The D800 has competition - resolution is not the king anymore in MF

    I rather think that by the time Canon releases a 30+ MP DSLR, Nikon will already be there with a 40-50 MP DSLR. So why bother any longer with Canon?

    Nikon meanwhile have a number of very good lenses which work already perfectly with the D800E and if you insist on even higher quality then some selected Zeiss or Sigma glass can offer that.

    Plus they have gained experience with cameras without AA filter (D800E, D7100, Coolpix A), which Canon has still to prove they can do.

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    Re: The D800 has competition - resolution is not the king anymore in MF

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    I rather think that by the time Canon releases a 30+ MP DSLR, Nikon will already be there with a 40-50 MP DSLR. So why bother any longer with Canon?

    ....
    I think Nikon D800 scores with high MP and DR.

    The Canon with better skin tones, faster speed, and more high resolution AF-lenses.
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  40. #40
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    Re: The D800 has competition - resolution is not the king anymore in MF

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    I rather think that by the time Canon releases a 30+ MP DSLR, Nikon will already be there with a 40-50 MP DSLR. So why bother any longer with Canon?
    Because I have been using various Canon cameras for numerous years and in particular the 1Ds3. It has made me several hundred thousand pounds in income and has never put a foot wrong............ why would I ever, ever, ever want to switch to a Nikon?

    To this day, with the continual development of RAW conversion software, I still really love the output from this camera and I for one would relish a new higher Mpix camera from Canon and would buy one regardless of price tomorrow.

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    Member Richard Osbourne's Avatar
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    Re: The D800 has competition - resolution is not the king anymore in MF

    I agree Gareth. I worked successfully with a 1DsIII for years. I'm using a D800e as a backup to the Cambo/P45+/AFD and it has good resolution and low-light performance but it has two giant flaws: the colours are unpredictable - sometimes just about ok, sometimes really unpleasant, especially with nature; secondly, there is NO way of checking the files at 100%. Not on liveview or playback. It zooms to a certain point and then goes fuzzy. This is an astounding omission for a super high res camera on which focusing is critical. Like you, I'd have a high res Canon in a heartbeat. I've only been waiting 5 years now...

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    Re: The D800 has competition - resolution is not the king anymore in MF

    Quote Originally Posted by gazwas View Post
    Because I have been using various Canon cameras for numerous years and in particular the 1Ds3. It has made me several hundred thousand pounds in income and has never put a foot wrong............ why would I ever, ever, ever want to switch to a Nikon?

    To this day, with the continual development of RAW conversion software, I still really love the output from this camera and I for one would relish a new higher Mpix camera from Canon and would buy one regardless of price tomorrow.
    Canon build quality is high and i prefer the EF mount to the F mount..if they can match or exceed the exmor sensor they are on a winner...backlit buttons would also be a nice touch..

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