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Fuji X100 preview at dPreview

douglasf13

New member
Indeed!

If in fact it is a Nikon sensor i think disappointing considering that Fuji has claimed custom made (micro lenses do not qualify suchs tatement). Likewise disappointing considering Fuji's history of sensors from S2, S3, S5 and the high DR capabilites also of smaller cameras. If indeed they buy sensor from someone why not from Kodak or Dalsa or have it custom made from them? Likewise of the lens, why not a Zeiss, Scheider or Rodenstock?

Regards
Anders
Why? No one makes sensors better than Sony, and Fuji high-end optics are world class. In fact, Fuji makes Hasselblad H lenses.
 

jonoslack

Active member
Why? No one makes sensors better than Sony, and Fuji high-end optics are world class. In fact, Fuji makes Hasselblad H lenses.
Whilst I quite agree with you - if they are going to use a Sony sensor (fine by me) it's a pity they've apparently used an old one, and not the new sensor fitted to the A55 and the K5 with it's spectacular high ISO and dynamic range (and 16mps).
 

douglasf13

New member
I agree, Jono. Heck, they could've at least gone for the 14mp Sony sensor. I wonder what the cost difference between the 12, 14 and 16mp sensors are to the manufacturers?
 

ptomsu

Workshop Member
I agree, Jono. Heck, they could've at least gone for the 14mp Sony sensor. I wonder what the cost difference between the 12, 14 and 16mp sensors are to the manufacturers?
One of the issues I never understood - building a camera from scratch today and not going for the latest technology available is kind of odd .....
 

tom in mpls

Active member
The issue may be the need to design and manufacture the custom microlens array; it may not be a simple matter to drop in just any sensor. None the less, I, too, am disappointed that it doesn't have the Sony 16mp.
 

douglasf13

New member
I think you're right about the timeframe, Tom.

As a quick side note, actual resolution differences may be more academic than real in practice. Iliah Borg posted some pretty interesting insights recently in regards to the actual differences of resolutions, handheld and on tripods and vices. If you're not using a tripod, it may not matter for final output whether it is a 12 or 16 mp sensor (in regards to resolution.)

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1021&message=37552546
 

douglasf13

New member
The hybrid finder is nothing short of brilliant (literally). That said, the review mentioned the view has .5x magnification of the scene (with the framelines having 90% accuracy). Leica M's have been around .58x at the smallest (to accommodate their wider lenses at the time without needing an external VF) but typically around .68x and .72x. Doesn't that suggest the x100 may be a somewhat 'peephole' experience?
Here is a cool little video through the X100 VF.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOhR2O4C054&feature=player_embedded
 

tom in mpls

Active member
Cool video indeed! I like what I see. The data, focus boxes, etc look wonderfully clear. Is the technology similar to "heads up" displays for cars etc?
 

Godfrey

Well-known member
The issue may be the need to design and manufacture the custom microlens array; it may not be a simple matter to drop in just any sensor. None the less, I, too, am disappointed that it doesn't have the Sony 16mp.
Between 12 and 16 Mpixel on this size sensor, all else being equal, amounts to about a 2-3 LP@mm resolution difference. I won't sweat it.
 

Anders_HK

Member
Why? No one makes sensors better than Sony, and Fuji high-end optics are world class. In fact, Fuji makes Hasselblad H lenses.
Ehhh...

Sensors: Dalsa and Kodak makes highest quality. Used in MFDB + Leica M8 & M9. If Fuji is smart they base on sensor technology they have developed themselves, such as furthering the old honeycomb concept or other sensor technology for high dynamic range. At least in my book that would be more interesting...

Lenses: Correct Fuji makes Hasselblad H lenses, but Zeiss Hasselblad V lenses. Elsewhere has been discussed issue of Hassy ditch Zeiss and recreate line for H with Fuji.
Which ones better? There is a certain character in quality of German glass not available from other fabricators: read Zeiss, Schneider and Rodenstock and these companies are arguably capable of the very best.

Above two are most important for image quality, more so than any gadgets they build in...

Back to my Leaf Aptus :thumbs: and iPhone :thumbs: ... :watch:
 

Terry

New member
Ehhh...

Sensors: Dalsa and Kodak makes highest quality. Used in MFDB + Leica M8 & M9. If Fuji is smart they base on sensor technology they have developed themselves, such as furthering the old honeycomb concept or other sensor technology for high dynamic range. At least in my book that would be more interesting...
The first MF back that even remotely has live view was announced this week. The refresh rate of the image will be only 3x per second. The Panny m4/3 are more than 60x per second. The M8 again a CCD with no live view.
 

douglasf13

New member
Ehhh...

Sensors: Dalsa and Kodak makes highest quality. Used in MFDB + Leica M8 & M9. If Fuji is smart they base on sensor technology they have developed themselves, such as furthering the old honeycomb concept or other sensor technology for high dynamic range. At least in my book that would be more interesting...

Lenses: Correct Fuji makes Hasselblad H lenses, but Zeiss Hasselblad V lenses. Elsewhere has been discussed issue of Hassy ditch Zeiss and recreate line for H with Fuji.
Which ones better? There is a certain character in quality of German glass not available from other fabricators: read Zeiss, Schneider and Rodenstock and these companies are arguably capable of the very best.

Above two are most important for image quality, more so than any gadgets they build in...

Back to my Leaf Aptus :thumbs: and iPhone :thumbs: ... :watch:
We can certainly discuss different "looks," and I've generally shot Zeiss on both my Hasselblads and DSLRs, but I certainly think Fuji is a high end competitor to the German lens makers.

As for sensors, you've got it a bit backwards. Technology moves upstream with camera sensors, and, actually, some P&S sensors have the best per pixel quality of all. MFDB sensors are considerably behind current aps-c sensors in technology, and MFDB's performance advantage is dependent on superior supporting electronics and physical size, not the sensor design itself. If Sony made a 645 sized Exmor and yanked the AA filter off, I think Dalsa and Kodak MFDB sensor production would be in big trouble. Sony's CFA is competitive with MFDB, too.

p.s. I've owned Leaf mfdb, 35mm and aps-c digital cameras, so I'm not playing sides. :)
 
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Anders_HK

Member
@ Terry, live view does not equal image quality :D

We can certainly discuss different "looks," and I've generally shot Zeiss on both my Hasselblads and DSLRs, but I certainly think Fuji is a high end competitor to the German lens makers.
Fuji is of course capable of quality glass, but in general terms Zeiss, Schneider and Rodenstock are higher yet. I guess they do not wish to put those on a Fuji ... :(

... some P&S sensors have the best per pixel quality of all. MFDB sensors are considerably behind current aps-c sensors in technology...
Incorrect if we speak of best possible image quality. The sensors capable of highest image quality today are those by Dalsa and second by Kodak. Else Leaf, Phase One and Hassy would contract Sony, Canon or Nikon! However, highest image quality is at low ISO. If we speak of capability at high ISO it takes a different sensor design. Regarding such also Kodak make sensors with base ISO of 200...

If Sony made a 645 sized Exmor and yanked the AA filter off, I think Dalsa and Kodak MFDB sensor production would be in big trouble. Sony's CFA is competitive with MFDB, too.
It takes more. I think they would be no more worried than of Pentax 645D, of which they are not. Rather I believe Canon and Nikon are :D

p.s. I've owned Leaf mfdb, 35mm and aps-c digital cameras, so I'm not playing sides. :)
Then you should like me know ;). I have owned more. The interesting would as I indicated in post above be if they would use a Fuji designed sensor, which was what they had indicated by "custom designed". However, though not confirmed by Fuji it sounds as if sensor instead is a Sony, which does not match what they had stated. Fuji is capable of sensors as they showed with their S2, S3 and S5 dslrs, and... that patent they filed years back of a new Foveon type technology...

... back to reading of Leaf and iPhone and the new IQ backs... :watch:

Regards
Anders
 

douglasf13

New member
Sorry, Anders, but you're simply wrong about sensors (I'll leave the Fuji lens debate alone.) You are confusing overall output with base sensor quality, and that is the point I'm trying to make. The sensors in MFDB and the M8/M9 are rather outdated technology, but the systems as a whole output great files, because of the reasons I mentioned earlier. Joakim over on Fred Miranda, who actually works in the field, speaks to this a lot, and I'm sure you could ask him specifics in this regard. Here is one of his many posts, this one about the M9: http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/893332/8#8504636

There isn't anything magical about Leica M and MFDB sensors, but size and excellent supporting hardware (and, arguably, no AA filter) goes a long way. The reason they aren't contracting someone like Sony to make more modern, large sensors comes down to scaling costs (Pentax 645D uses a Kodak sensor, too.) Sony probably doesn't see it as economical.

It is interesting that Fuji didn't try their own design, like from the S5, but it really signals how good Sony aps-c sensors have become over the last couple of years. The new 16mp version has outrageous base ISO DR for an aps-c sensor: http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=49200.0
 

Anders_HK

Member
Douglas,

The sensors in M8, M9 per what I understand indeed are built on old sensor design and that originally for M8. The newer generation sensors in Leaf and Phase One backs (latest are 80MP sensors) are new designs (fabricated by Dalsa) to achieve the best image quality possible at 80MP today. The fact that they use CCD does in itself not mean outdated technology, it is matter of choice (those who prefer high ISO disagree). I do believe Dalsa and Kodak are capable of higher quality sensors than Sony, but we can disagree. On other hand I believe we agree that the final output is what counts. Above as concerning X100 is slight :OT:.

I did miss out using the old honecomb sensor... pity if they not use a Fuji sensor :deadhorse:... :watch:

Regards
Anders
 

lambert

New member
...

It is interesting that Fuji didn't try their own design, like from the S5, but it really signals how good Sony aps-c sensors have become over the last couple of years. The new 16mp version has outrageous base ISO DR for an aps-c sensor: http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=49200.0

It's disappointing that Fuji did not go with Sony's latest 16mp sensor as used in the K5 & D7000, instead of the 2 or 3 year old 12mp sensor.
 

douglasf13

New member
It's disappointing that Fuji did not go with Sony's latest 16mp sensor as used in the K5 & D7000, instead of the 2 or 3 year old 12mp sensor.
Agreed, although as Tom mentioned, I'm betting it has to do with development time for the special offset microlenses. Who knows?
 

jonoslack

Active member
@ Terry, live view does not equal image quality :D
HI Anders
perhaps it does in your case?
All the sensors you 'like' seem to be CCD, which fundamentally excludes live view.

@Douglas
Those articles are interesting - I noted the idea that a FF version of the K5 sensor would be 38mp with a 12 stop dynamic range - an attractive proposition for the A900 replacement I'd say!
 
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