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Fuji X100 preview at dPreview

douglasf13

New member
Douglas,

The sensors in M8, M9 per what I understand indeed are built on old sensor design and that originally for M8. The newer generation sensors in Leaf and Phase One backs (latest are 80MP sensors) are new designs (fabricated by Dalsa) to achieve the best image quality possible at 80MP today. The fact that they use CCD does in itself not mean outdated technology, it is matter of choice (those who prefer high ISO disagree). I do believe Dalsa and Kodak are capable of higher quality sensors than Sony, but we can disagree. On other hand I believe we agree that the final output is what counts. Above as concerning X100 is slight :OT:.

I did miss out using the old honecomb sensor... pity if they not use a Fuji sensor :deadhorse:... :watch:

Regards
Anders
Not to beat a dead horse too much :deadhorse:, and at the risk of staying off topic, I emailed Joakim about the quality of the Dalsa sensors, as much that I have read was in regards to the Kodak sensors, and he was kind enough to give me permission to post his email:



"[In comparison to Sony Exmor CMOS sensors,] the single biggest difference (when compared to the latest generation of Dalsas (P65, HB60, Leaf80, PO80) is really the total QE (up to ~50% in the best Nikon incarnations, about 30% in most larger format sensors) - and increased sensitivity to light at lower incident angles. Most MF systems do not carry non-retrofocus lenses or lenses faster than F2.8, so that's of a lesser importance too...

The M8 and M9 designs should not be likened to those sensors, they're at least four-five years older in design and performance. Eight years in the M8 case.

What you WOULD gain [with EXMOR] is high ISO capabilities and readout speeds (at least doubling of the fps), and actually I think that those are not really the main PoS arguments on MF backs... But the ISO400 performance would be half the losses when compared to the very best current MFDB - maybe this would be important?

I don't know if Sony can stitch their latest 4.8µm cells - sofar we've only seen single-sweep sensors from that generation. I'd think we get a good indication of that when the next high-MP Nikon FX gets public.

But yes, the short answer is that the very best MFDB sensors today perform on par with APS size cameras of the D90-generation - at best.

Also, the D7000 resolution would give 95MP on the 54x40mm format, and the 7D/60D resolution would give almost 120MP on the same format.

The D7000 has 2.1Ge- per mm2 at ISO100, and the Dalsa 6µm cell has around 1.2Ge- per mm2 and twice the readout noise. This would make the [D7000] ISO200 performance almost exactly the same as the current [Dalsa] ISO100 performance, and the [D7000] ISO100 performance about the same as the [Dalsa] ISO50 performance." - Joakim




So, I still contend that there is no reason why Fuji would consider using Dalsa (or Kodak) for their APS-C camera. MFDB isn't about sensor quality itself at the pixel level, but, rather, taking advantage of nice, large sensors. :)
 

Anders_HK

Member
So, I still contend that there is no reason why Fuji would consider using Dalsa (or Kodak) for their APS-C camera. MFDB isn't about sensor quality itself at the pixel level, but, rather, taking advantage of nice, large sensors. :)
Well, I could stay quiet (though you quoted my post)... or... simply state that our opinions differ and I politely do not wish waste time do dig and dig. Is it not so that whenever discussions relating to demonstrate or justify dslrs or dslr sensors should equal or better mfdb ones that discussion is dragged deeper and deepr into scientific details to justify and prove one tireless point?? That is pointless. I can say again that I prefer sensors from Dalsa and Kodak and that thus my opinion is that they are the top, but also the Fuji ones seem interesting because of their hdr capacity and the old patent on Foveon type. Seems what you quoted is focus on noise? MF sensors are not aimed at high ISO but ultimate image quality. That does not mean that Dalsa and Kodak are capable of only one sensor, does it?? :toocool:

Back to X100. It would be sweet if the reason Fuji pulled the images from Norweigan article turned out to be because actual launch of sensor to be used is a different and something very new, after all they stated 'custom made' was it?... but perhaps not...

Seems though... X100 is already feels tad old prior released :ROTFL: ...

Regards
Anders
 

jonoslack

Active member
Seems though... X100 is already feels tad old prior released :ROTFL: ...

Regards
Anders
I fear that it does . . . incidentally, I rather agree about Kodak and Dalsa sensors . . . but I can't see how you could possibly have incorporated a CCD (rather than a CMOS) into a camera where live view is unquestionably the main point, and where contrast detect focusing is going to be the main method.

all the best
 

Godfrey

Well-known member
...
Seems though... X100 is already feels tad old prior released
You folks are just accelerating the usual cycle of Magpie Syndrome to new heights. It used to be:

- get excited about shiny new thing
- read all about and anticipate shiny new thing
- buy shiny new thing
- let buyer's remorse dash all hope and expectation from the universe
- get rid of the piece of junk
- "Oh look, there's another shiny new thing..."

Now you get to buyer's remorse before you even buy the object of your infatuation.

This is good at least in that you might spend less money. However, I bet a good number of you buy it anyway... ;-)
 

jonoslack

Active member
This is good at least in that you might spend less money. However, I bet a good number of you buy it anyway... ;-)
:ROTFL: Probably . . .
You're a fine one to talk with your shiny new E5 (I think you were the first person in the world to get one!).

. . . . . and so am I with my shiny new K5, although my credentials are nothing like as good as yours :)
 

Godfrey

Well-known member
Probably . . .
You're a fine one to talk with your shiny new E5 (I think you were the first person in the world to get one!).

. . . . . and so am I with my shiny new K5, although my credentials are nothing like as good as yours
Yeah ... I bought the first new camera I'd purchased since December 2008 after planning to buy its predecessor for three years. I just keep buying equipment willy nilly, helter-skelter.

I'm your model GetDPI photo equipment geek.
 

jonoslack

Active member
Yeah ... I bought the first new camera I'd purchased since December 2008 after planning to buy its predecessor for three years. I just keep buying equipment willy nilly, helter-skelter.

I'm your model GetDPI photo equipment geek.
:ROTFL:That's the one Godfrey!
The profligate we all know and love!

But will you buy an X100?
 

Braeside

New member
Regarding liveview and CCD sensors, don't Panasonic use CCDs in a lot of their bridge and super compacts and they all have liveview and HD video?

Sorry we seem to be getting a bit off topic again.

Would love a future X10x with interchangeable lenses, let's hope Fuji are thinking along those lines.
 

Godfrey

Well-known member
That's the one Godfrey!
The profligate we all know and love!

But will you buy an X100?
At your service.

I don't know yet whether I'll buy an X100. I will likely wait until it's out, I have tested it, and Lightroom supports it before making a decision. It would suit certain kinds of photography I like to do well, whether better than the E-5 ... or better than an E-PL2 two lens kit ... I can't answer yet.

I might not buy anything at all in the near future as I'm pretty happy with the kit I have now. Sold the G1, sold the L1 as I am no longer user them. I'm reducing the equipment distraction. If an X100 or any other compact serves the right purpose and reduces the equipment distraction, it has a chance.
 

jonoslack

Active member
Regarding liveview and CCD sensors, don't Panasonic use CCDs in a lot of their bridge and super compacts and they all have liveview and HD video?

Sorry we seem to be getting a bit off topic again.

Would love a future X10x with interchangeable lenses, let's hope Fuji are thinking along those lines.
HI There - interesting point that - but do they have a separate sensor for live view and video?
I understood that it wasn't possible with a CCD?
 

Jorgen Udvang

Subscriber Member
HI There - interesting point that - but do they have a separate sensor for live view and video?
I understood that it wasn't possible with a CCD?
Nah... there must be another solution to that. All videocams used to have CCDs, didn't they, and I believe some still have. Video is live view per definition, isn't it?
 

jonoslack

Active member
I hear Panosonic is in the final testing stages of a mirrorless Leica M mount crop camera.
Interesting - but do you think Leica would be pleased about that?
Seems like an odd kind of a product . . . . unless it's badged as a Leica?
X2 perhaps?
 

douglasf13

New member
There isn't some still image magic in CCD, guys. Sony had been using it in their lower end cameras up until last year, and nearly all compact cameras used CCD until recently. Any perceived advantaged that one may see in CCD medium format cameras and leica cameras probably has more to do with sensor topping choices, processing and/or sensor size differences. A the pixel level, CMOS has taken the technology lead, because the big companies are dumping more money into it.
 
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