Fun with the Fuji X10

[Terry]

Re: Fuji X10

I'm sure the Fuji X10 is excellent, and that it's better than the Xz-1 in some circumstances, and not in others

Yes, and you generally want to see first hand where it is better and where it falls flat. How far is that Warehouse Express?

:watch:

 

[jonoslack]

Re: Fuji X10

Yes, and you generally want to see first hand where it is better and where it falls flat. How far is that Warehouse Express?

:watch:

HI Terry - 8 miles from the office . . . I've already got the XZ-1 - I can't get excited enough about it to make the journey!
:sleep006:

 

[Terry]

Re: Fuji X10

Not even the manual zoom?

 

[jonoslack]

Re: Fuji X10

Not even the manual zoom?

Hah - I just looked at the dpreview preview - Richard Butler is hardly Kai is he:ROTFL:

Still, I can see the point . . . but it would be as a riding camera, which is good to use one handed, which makes the manual zoom more of a disadvantage than an advantage . . . maybe I'll just stick to the NEX for now! . . . . . probably

 

[woodmancy]

Re: Fuji X10

I'm surprised that not too many people are raving about the possibilities of the OVF. One poster in the DPreview comments who has handled the X10 says the viewfinder is as good as an SLR. This might be a refreshing change from bolt-on EVFs

Keith

 

[Terry]

Re: Fuji X10

I'm surprised that not too many people are raving about the possibilities of the OVF. One poster in the DPreview comments who has handled the X10 says the viewfinder is as good as an SLR. This might be a refreshing change from bolt-on EVFs

Keith

Haha - I was going to write that to Jono as well but I thought to go for less is more .

I hadn't really considered this camera but the more I see the more I like.

 

[Millsart]

Re: Fuji X10

Its quite a different animal from an add on EVF though and not what most people are going to expect.

What its like is an add on external finder for the hotshoe, which while cameras offer them, like the LX5 etc, even Sony has a 16mm for the NEX, in addition to being able to use any Leica, Voigtlander etc, they aren't what the average shooter really enjoys.

I think the X10 will be fantastic focused at 2 meters, f4, and just using the OVF to frame, but that style of shooting isn't how much people work.

I'm surprised that not too many people are raving about the possibilities of the OVF. One poster in the DPreview comments who has handled the X10 says the viewfinder is as good as an SLR. This might be a refreshing change from bolt-on EVFs

Keith

 

[Terry]

Re: Fuji X10

Its quite a different animal from an add on EVF though and not what most people are going to expect.

What its like is an add on external finder for the hotshoe, which while cameras offer them, like the LX5 etc, even Sony has a 16mm for the NEX, in addition to being able to use any Leica, Voigtlander etc, they aren't what the average shooter really enjoys.

I think the X10 will be fantastic focused at 2 meters, f4, and just using the OVF to frame, but that style of shooting isn't how much people work.

It looked like they followed the lead of Ricoh and put the focus confirm light in a position where you can see it turn green when using the OVF.

I don't think people are expecting it to be like an EVF as people looking at this camera (or at least the ones I know) understand the differences.

What I am most interested in seeing in using the OVF is the fluidity of the OVF zoom.

 

[Millsart]

Re: Fuji X10

Problem with a green light, or a beep or what have you is that all you know is that the camera focused.....but on what ??

Theres not even a center point in the OVF (wonder if it could be etched or use a sharpie etc ? lol) so you can frame the shot with the OVF, but if theres a foreground subject and a background, and you hear a beep, see a green dot out of the corner of your eye etc, how do you know if the camera picked the background or the subject ? You don't.

Probably not a problem for shooting wide angle snapshoty stuff due to so much DoF but it sadly makes the OVF not really useful for much else other than framing.

I was saddened by this at first, but after getting to handle the camera a bit, and seeing what a nice OVF it actually is, limitations aside, I changed my mind and ordered the camera.

If you want an OVF/EVF type of deal, it will disapoint. If you think of it as using an external finder, its quite good.

I had a few external finders (usually came with VC rf lenses I used to have) and I'd use them on the LX5 with it set to MF and step zoom to the proper focal length.

I think of the X10 VF the same way, its just like carrying a bunch of external finders.

Not going to work for knowing whats in focus or anything, but set the camera to say 35mm, focus at 2 meters and then it should be a great zone focus street machine. Shutter lag is supposed to be very minimal, and while it is only 85% view, still should be a fun experience.

I don't think everyone will agree, but for me its a fun way to shoot sometimes.

It looked like they followed the lead of Ricoh and put the focus confirm light in a position where you can see it turn green when using the OVF.

I don't think people are expecting it to be like an EVF as people looking at this camera (or at least the ones I know) understand the differences.

What I am most interested in seeing in using the OVF is the fluidity of the OVF zoom.

 

[Terry]

Re: Fuji X10

Thanks for the info.

I would only use the OVF for center point focus and not when I know it has elements that can be really confusing. It really again is no different than the other OVF solutions out there.

 

[woodmancy]

Re: Fuji X10

It looked like they followed the lead of Ricoh and put the focus confirm light in a position where you can see it turn green when using the OVF.

I don't think people are expecting it to be like an EVF as people looking at this camera (or at least the ones I know) understand the differences.

What I am most interested in seeing in using the OVF is the fluidity of the OVF zoom.

That little green focus confirmation light makes the world of difference. I use it a lot with my Ricohs when I use external finders. My Sigma DP1 did not have it - and I missed it badly (alas the Sigma has passed over after saving me from tearing up my hand in a recent fall - don't take take pictures of cathedrals while walking on uneven paving stones:OT

Keith

 

[Millsart]

Re: Fuji X10

I'd have to disagree with you on that one Terry, though bear in mind that I've only briefly handled the X10 so I'm not as well versed as someone who owns one.

Having had a X100 as well, just from the OVF aspect alone I think its actually very different.

The framelines adjust for parallax, which the X10 doesnt do.

The viewfinder can display a distance scale/DoF scale, which can help confirm on what the camera has focused even though the OVF doesn't show any DoF effect

The X100 displays the AF box, and more so on the newer FW, it also is adjusted for parallax.

My Leica RF window's also adjust the framelines for parallax and obviously show focusing information.

Any SLR/DSLR OVF is also going to show shooting info, AF point, DoF effect , no parallax etc

I just don't think there really is any OVF, aside from a true external optical finder that is like the X10's. All the other ones I've used provide for a quite different experience overall.

Not to say its useless, because I did quite enjoy it, and thinking of it as a zoomable external optical finder which just happens to be built into the camera is a great idea in my book still, but overall its limited.

Hopefully the AF system will prove to be more accurate and reliable than the X100 though which could lead to a higher success rate with blindly hoping the camera chooses the correct point. My X100 would often fight me not to select the BG, but perhaps the X10 will prove able to select the right point enough times to trust it and shoot more just with a plain optical finder and not having to review each shot. Will be interesting to put it through its paces

Thanks for the info.

I would only use the OVF for center point focus and not when I know it has elements that can be really confusing. It really again is no different than the other OVF solutions out there.

 

[Terry]

Re: Fuji X10

The optical viewfinder of the X100 is a completely different animal. It is not an optical viewfinder in the way I'm talking about at all. It is a hybrid viewfinder with electronic overlays and is the first of its kind.

I think we are just talking apples and oranges. I am talking about a dumb optical viewfinder on something like the Ricohs, Sigmas, Canon G12, the m4/3 OVF you can add to the camera, various Voigtlander or Leica finders used in the hot shoes. That is the norm in terms of compact enthusiast cameras. In those cases, working with the Ricoh GRD's, Leica X1, Sigma DPx's etc. I would bet that most people using the optical finder will use a center focus point and where available rely on the green light. This was written about extensively when each of these cameras was released as Ricoh set the standard.

I'd have to disagree with you on that one Terry, though bear in mind that I've only briefly handled the X10 so I'm not as well versed as someone who owns one.

Having had a X100 as well, just from the OVF aspect alone I think its actually very different.

The framelines adjust for parallax, which the X10 doesnt do.

The viewfinder can display a distance scale/DoF scale, which can help confirm on what the camera has focused even though the OVF doesn't show any DoF effect

The X100 displays the AF box, and more so on the newer FW, it also is adjusted for parallax.

My Leica RF window's also adjust the framelines for parallax and obviously show focusing information.

Any SLR/DSLR OVF is also going to show shooting info, AF point, DoF effect , no parallax etc

I just don't think there really is any OVF, aside from a true external optical finder that is like the X10's. All the other ones I've used provide for a quite different experience overall.

Not to say its useless, because I did quite enjoy it, and thinking of it as a zoomable external optical finder which just happens to be built into the camera is a great idea in my book still, but overall its limited.

Hopefully the AF system will prove to be more accurate and reliable than the X100 though which could lead to a higher success rate with blindly hoping the camera chooses the correct point. My X100 would often fight me not to select the BG, but perhaps the X10 will prove able to select the right point enough times to trust it and shoot more just with a plain optical finder and not having to review each shot. Will be interesting to put it through its paces

 

[raist3d]

Re: Fuji X10

@A lot in general (little rant mode on)

I am going to be very frank and before you shoot me, just think about what I am about to say. I think the whole train of "new camera, let's upgrade" is something that not only is very expensive, but has nothing to do with improving one's photography. I have been guilty of this myself, and I see a new camera means spending time just to get the new tool at an intuitive level.

Sure, it can be a lot of fun to get a new toy and try to figure out the puzzle- how it behaves, what you think it can take, etc. But this has nothing to do with photography.

On this site I have seen the following:

- at least someone who has a perfectly fine FF A900 switch to other cameras (no obvious reason photographically speaking)
- at least someone having the best of micro four thirds sensor wise (that's the GH2) only to get the x100 and also the latest pen (EP-3)
- at least someone to get a pentax K-5, only to switch to other cameras. Having an A900 (!) and a (!!!!) Leica too.
- immediate jump to an X10 as it is out now or about to be. No obvious reason.
- lots of jump to get an X100.
- at least someone getting an apparently perfectly fine for their needs E-5 even, expensive SHG glass if I have read correctly, mumbling a 2nd system or switch. (After having a K-5 and have been apparently happy with it).
- lots of micro four thirds "jump to latest model" - cross brand (olympus-> Panny or Panny-> Olympus)

Upgrade of models within months, not even a year. One has to ask: is this photography? And you know, fine if you got the time, cash and all you want is play, but it certainly is not photography (and hey, my apologies if everyone is so aware of this already).

I made a vow to a photographer friend I am keeping the K-5 for *five years* and once I decide my pocket camera, also for five years- whatever that is. It may very well be the one I already have - an LX5.

In the name of simplification it even crossed my mind to sell my Pentax and get an E-5 and use my E-620 just because I have a full lens system now sitting there doing nothing for the most past (though I still fire up the 420/620 from time to time).

A friend of mine (photographer) brought the final point home to me by linking to a photographer whose camera is simply a Nikon F2- for the last 25 years of his career. There's something to be said about *really knowing* and pushing through the limits of the camera you grow intimate with. Even stuff it's not designed for with the mind that even artifacts can work to create art. To do photography.

(end of little rant mode).

- Ricardo

 

[retow]

Re: Fuji X10

@A lot in general (little rant mode on)

I am going to be very frank and before you shoot me, just think about what I am about to say. I think the whole train of "new camera, let's upgrade" is something that not only is very expensive, but has nothing to do with improving one's photography. I have been guilty of this myself, and I see a new camera means spending time just to get the new tool at an intuitive level.

Sure, it can be a lot of fun to get a new toy and try to figure out the puzzle- how it behaves, what you think it can take, etc. But this has nothing to do with photography.

On this site I have seen the following:

- at least someone who has a perfectly fine FF A900 switch to other cameras (no obvious reason photographically speaking)
- at least someone having the best of micro four thirds sensor wise (that's the GH2) only to get the x100 and also the latest pen (EP-3)
- at least someone to get a pentax K-5, only to switch to other cameras. Having an A900 (!) and a (!!!!) Leica too.
- immediate jump to an X10 as it is out now or about to be. No obvious reason.
- lots of jump to get an X100.
- at least someone getting an apparently perfectly fine for their needs E-5 even, expensive SHG glass if I have read correctly, mumbling a 2nd system or switch. (After having a K-5 and have been apparently happy with it).
- lots of micro four thirds "jump to latest model" - cross brand (olympus-> Panny or Panny-> Olympus)

Upgrade of models within months, not even a year. One has to ask: is this photography? And you know, fine if you got the time, cash and all you want is play, but it certainly is not photography (and hey, my apologies if everyone is so aware of this already).

I made a vow to a photographer friend I am keeping the K-5 for *five years* and once I decide my pocket camera, also for five years- whatever that is. It may very well be the one I already have - an LX5.

In the name of simplification it even crossed my mind to sell my Pentax and get an E-5 and use my E-620 just because I have a full lens system now sitting there doing nothing for the most past (though I still fire up the 420/620 from time to time).

A friend of mine (photographer) brought the final point home to me by linking to a photographer whose camera is simply a Nikon F2- for the last 25 years of his career. There's something to be said about *really knowing* and pushing through the limits of the camera you grow intimate with. Even stuff it's not designed for with the mind that even artifacts can work to create art. To do photography.

(end of little rant mode).

- Ricardo

A spot on analysis, and I'm guilty myself. I could have gone on many nice trips or attended some excellent photo classes with money wasted on buying and selling the "newest and best". Have to overcome that excitement of opening a box with the newest toy inside, as it is only a very short lived joy. And once first love is over selling the now uninspiring stuff is a pain in the ……., at least for me

 

[rayyan]

Re: Fuji X10

Ricardo, a timely post what with so many camera introductions awaited.

I have given my D700 in to Nikon for repair. I thought long and hard about

this issue when I was out of cameras recently. The D700 ( if it can be repaired

economically ) is sufficient for my needs and prints. So is my M8.

I thought about all the wonderful new cams..and I conducted a critical Q&A with myself.

I don't really need anything else, first. Second, I do not have the funds.

The wife's D-Lux4 broke down too! Not worth repairing. Shall get her a

new small sensor cam. One that can take M-mount and Nikon lenses

if possible!

I know my photography shall not improve with a camera change..

Thanks for that timely reminder once again.

 

[Terry]

Re: Fuji X10

While nothing you say is wrong and you do say this, some people just like to explore new cameras and new tech and that is part of their fun.

If that is what brings them enjoyment then I'm not one to throw stones at what they are doing (i'm extremely guilty). It may not make them a good or brilliant photographer but each of our motivations are different.

@A lot in general (little rant mode on)

I am going to be very frank and before you shoot me, just think about what I am about to say. I think the whole train of "new camera, let's upgrade" is something that not only is very expensive, but has nothing to do with improving one's photography. I have been guilty of this myself, and I see a new camera means spending time just to get the new tool at an intuitive level.

Sure, it can be a lot of fun to get a new toy and try to figure out the puzzle- how it behaves, what you think it can take, etc. But this has nothing to do with photography.

On this site I have seen the following:

- at least someone who has a perfectly fine FF A900 switch to other cameras (no obvious reason photographically speaking)
- at least someone having the best of micro four thirds sensor wise (that's the GH2) only to get the x100 and also the latest pen (EP-3)
- at least someone to get a pentax K-5, only to switch to other cameras. Having an A900 (!) and a (!!!!) Leica too.
- immediate jump to an X10 as it is out now or about to be. No obvious reason.
- lots of jump to get an X100.
- at least someone getting an apparently perfectly fine for their needs E-5 even, expensive SHG glass if I have read correctly, mumbling a 2nd system or switch. (After having a K-5 and have been apparently happy with it).
- lots of micro four thirds "jump to latest model" - cross brand (olympus-> Panny or Panny-> Olympus)

Upgrade of models within months, not even a year. One has to ask: is this photography? And you know, fine if you got the time, cash and all you want is play, but it certainly is not photography (and hey, my apologies if everyone is so aware of this already).

I made a vow to a photographer friend I am keeping the K-5 for *five years* and once I decide my pocket camera, also for five years- whatever that is. It may very well be the one I already have - an LX5.

In the name of simplification it even crossed my mind to sell my Pentax and get an E-5 and use my E-620 just because I have a full lens system now sitting there doing nothing for the most past (though I still fire up the 420/620 from time to time).

A friend of mine (photographer) brought the final point home to me by linking to a photographer whose camera is simply a Nikon F2- for the last 25 years of his career. There's something to be said about *really knowing* and pushing through the limits of the camera you grow intimate with. Even stuff it's not designed for with the mind that even artifacts can work to create art. To do photography.

(end of little rant mode).

- Ricardo

 

[raist3d]

Re: Fuji X10

Terry - I agree that people can get joy out of just buying tech and I believe I did mention it. The only thing perhaps I need to add is that I see a lot of people buying all this gear in the name of photography- which it is not.

As a side thing, I do think it does bring the question if some people have becomes slaves to consumerism and get a very expensive short lived joy out of solving the puzzle and touching on other humans in the very limited way that buying something new like this can provide.

As for stone throwing I didn't mean to be taken that way but that's in some ways what some artists do with critique. I still think its worth pointing out.

The last two paragraphs is more about reflection, if someone has the cash, time and truly enjoys collecting, playing with the toys cool. But let's just not pretend we are doing photography.

 

[woodmancy]

Re: Fuji X10

I fail to see what a person's attraction to cameras has to do with their ability to be a great photographer

Keith

 

[raist3d]

Re: Fuji X10

I fail to see what a person's attraction to cameras has to do with their ability to be a great photographer

Keith

On a first glance and ideal world nothing. In real world terms focus is lost and in particular I dare say looking around you can tell one thing doesn't seem to change while cameras do. Anyway using mean to go on, on this. But hat I an say is changing camera models particularly so fast does most likely screws up your photography. Tere was a famous film photographer that mentioned when he changed models and brands it took him about a year to really get the new model at an intuitive level. He changed about four times in his career.

Speaking from experience, it took me longer than I thought to go to a Pentax k-5. We can say each individual has their own speeds but I do make the claim that change as fast as I have seen is most likely not good and I think there's evidence to support that. But I wot get into that. Just want to make sure I answer your question.


In either case all this camera buying has zero to do with photography. And I agree it's fine if that's what floats the boat as long as finances are in order, but it's not photography and I have often seen it under the pretense it is.