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What do camera makers owe us when they get it wrong?

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Over in DPReview the Fuji forum has been somewhat of a hornet's nest for the last three weeks due to the way the Fuji X10 handles specular highlights, which in a few words is... not very well.

Before I go further with this let me state that this issue has not ruined a single one of my photos and that I like and enjoy using the X10. I do plan on keeping it. It does so many things well. The problem is that, to some, the speuclar highlight issue is a real problem. Photographing musical instruments, cars, boats, seascapes, architecture, anything which might catch direct sunlight on a highly reflective surface will present orbs or blobs of light rather than a more acceptable star burst effect in the photo.

Here is a simple example of how the X10 renders these highlights. :wtf: Not quite what we are used to getting.. and I have seen worse examples than this one. You can imagine how this would play out for those who do seascapes on bright, sunny days as well as those who do night photography in cities.



Fuji is aware of the issue and is working on a firmware tweak. I hesitate to use the word "fix" because I am not sure it can be fixed as this issue appears to be a characteristic of the sensor used in the X10.

So my question is this:

When a camera manufacturer produces a camera with an unacceptable, unrepairable, unfixable issue.. What do they owe us? What are our rights? There are Lemmon Laws for cars but not sure if there is equal protection for consumers where cameras are concerned. I'm not suggesting the X10 is a lemmon by any means but there are those who will based on the issue with specular highlights.


[1]Should we be able to return the camera for a total refund if no fix is available?

[2]Will there be a limit on the amount of time in which we are free to return a flawed camera: two weeks, three weeks, months?

[3]Should Fuji offer a cash rebate for those who bought the camera but wish to keep it rather than ask for a refund if there is no fix?

I pose the question only because I know many will return the camera. Many, like myself, will keep the camera. So for those who feel the camera is flawed and unfixable, what will be their recourse? If Fuji's work/fix on this issue is still not acceptable where does that leave an unhappy consumer who may have had the camera longer than a stores specified return period?
 

Agnius

Member
Jim,

If you are after "perfect camera" - I think you will get disappointed. No such animal exist. If you are not happy with X10, return it and purchase something that you do like. Or wait for something that would be better. Such is life - full of compromises.

As Fuji is concerned, it is not at the profit margin of Leica or Phase where they could offer post hardware fixes after the product was released.

Best of luck,
 
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Godfrey

Well-known member
To answer the question directly: Nothing.

If you buy a camera from a retailer with a satisfaction guarantee policy and evaluate it properly in the course of that time period, find it lacking, you return it.

Otherwise, it's your responsibility, not the manufacturers', to either come up with a workaround or dispose of the equipment in preference for something that will do a better job for you.

this is called 'voting with your wallet.' new equipment returns are typically reimbursed to the vendor by the manufacturer and later re-sold as refurbs at much lower profit to people for whom the issue you couldnt live with is not a problem.
 

Terry

New member
I think if it was an issue that you didn't think would be fixed and impaired your ability to use the camera then I would suggest that people return the camera and wait to see if the issue gets fixed before rebuying.

In this case, yes, as you demonstrated the issue exists. However, it hasn't caused a problem in any images that I've shot. Even in some of the examples posted at DPReview I had to actively look for the issue as for the most part it doesn't impact the overall view of the image.

In the example you posted the problem area that you show looks very different in the context of the whole shot which at one point I saw posted. A lot of people have demonstrated the impact by looking for the worst case scenarios they could come up with and in the process made horrendously awful photos.

So, getting back to the problem at hand....if the problem can't be fixed (to an acceptable degree - these are still specular highlights) then Fuji should allow returns on the product.

The closest case that I've come across to a an issue somewhat like this didn't involve returns but a sensor failure a year or two into the life of the camera. Came from defective Sony 2/3 sensors and Panasonic and Leica both replaced the sensor on out of warranty cameras (LC1 and Digilux 2).
 
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Jim,

If you are after "perfect camera" - I think you will get disappointed. No such animal exist. If you are not happy with X10, return it and purchase something that you do like. Or wait for something that would be better. Such is life - full of compromises.

As Fuji is concerned, it is not at the profit margin of Leica or Phase where they could offer post hardware fixes after the product was released.

Best of luck,
First, if you've read my blog or numerous other posts you know that I know there is not perfect camera... nor do I search for such a mystical item.

Second, if Fuji or any other camera maker gets it wrong with hardware they are obligated to make it right or refund the purchase price. To do anything less will result in a negative PR image they will have a hard time shedding.
 
To answer the question directly: Nothing.
Disagree, Godfrey... if there is a flaw in the camera.. such as the mirrior issues I had with the K5 they repair it free of charge.

Fuji may not be able to repair this issue.

With the sensor issue involving the x10 and the specular highlights, I'm not sure that there will be a fix and if not then Fuji is on the hook for a refund or possibly a price reduction. Truth is the camera does not perform as most other cameras perform under the same circumstances. (regarding specular highlights) I can see how this is totally unacceptable to some... to me, it's not a big issue but the point is the camera or sensor does not handle these highlights properly and the issue does need to be addressed.
 

Godfrey

Well-known member
Disagree, Godfrey... if there is a flaw in the camera.. such as the mirrior issues I had with the K5 they repair it free of charge.

Fuji may not be able to repair this issue.

With the sensor issue involving the x10 and the specular highlights, I'm not sure that there will be a fix and if not then Fuji is on the hook for a refund or possibly a price reduction. Truth is the camera does not perform as most other cameras perform under the same circumstances. (regarding specular highlights) I can see how this is totally unacceptable to some... to me, it's not a big issue but the point is the camera or sensor does not handle these highlights properly and the issue does need to be addressed.
If there is a manufacturing flaw, that is covered by warranty. That's not what you were referring to with your question, or I with my response.

You said, "When a camera manufacturer produces a camera with an unacceptable, unrepairable, unfixable issue.. " which implies a design problem that made it into finished goods, not a manufacturing defect.

Design problems are an issue beyond the manufacturing defect which is covered by warranty. A good company will do its best to resolve such issues, but there is nothing that they "owe" the customers. The intent and effort to solve problems like this is up to the company and how prevalent an issue they perceive the problem to be, it's a matter of good faith rather than a 'right' of the customer to demand a solution by any implied legal mechanism.

Various countries have laws which specify the degree to which a legal mechanism can be applied for compensation in the case of such design issues. However, I don't know of any that would consider a case in which, in some cases, a particular camera blows specular highlights a little more frequently than others to be anything that would infringe on the merchantability of the X10.
 

jonoslack

Active member
Interesting discussion
Over here we don't have anything like your opportunity to return things within 30 days - sometimes a decent dealer will charge a re-stocking charge and take things back - very rarely (my X100) the dealer will agree that the camera could be construed as not 'fit for purpose' and take it back for a full refund.

In the UK there is a definition of
'fit for purpose'
If it isn't, then you can request a refund.

I would have thought that in this case you would be able to request a refund for the blobs . . . which would, incidentally, come from your dealer, and not from Fuji.

On the other hand I rather agree with Agnius - no camera is perfect, and the internet sure finds out the faults quickly enough (it must be terrifying launching a new product . . . actually, I KNOW it's terrifying launching a new camera from having spoken with those that do) Those first few days waiting for the ravening hordes on the internet to find that there is a focusing problem - or worse still blobs must be terrifying indeed!

Incidentally Jim - what happens if you take a picture of a running river with the sun beyond . . . . do you get shoals of blobs all over it? . . . I suppose it would make a difference from the purple spots that many cameras manage :)
 

Millsart

New member
How can it be argued that they "got it wrong" or that the camera it completely useless when there are lots of people who are quite happy with the camera and how it performs ??

Do you really think there needs to be a pixel peeper's "lemon law" just for the small minority of people who spend more time on internet gear forums than actually shooting ?

There is a minor issue, that hard core "enthusiast" may find makes it not a viable alternative for, but does that really mean its a useless product for any and all photographers ?

If my admissions its not a useless product for any and all photographers, then how could it be said the minority that has an issue is owed anything ?

Did this camera ever promise to be 100% flawless in any and all situations for photographers at every given level ?

Or is it instead just a consumer point and shoot camera thats perfectly acceptable for 95% of its buyers ?
 
How can it be argued that they "got it wrong" or that the camera it completely useless when there are lots of people who are quite happy with the camera and how it performs ??

Do you really think there needs to be a pixel peeper's "lemon law" just for the small minority of people who spend more time on internet gear forums than actually shooting ?
Obviously you don't know my feelings about this camera. Nor do you know how much I shoot. I am quite happy with my X10. I use it a lot. It is probably the best small sensor compact camera I have owned. Visit the X10 section of my website.

Forget the Fuji X10 and let's look at a hypothetical situation. The camera maker delivers a camera with a flaw that does not show up until sometime after the return period is over. The flaw is such that the camera becomes very difficult to use and photos under certain conditions just do not render properly. What should we expect from the camera maker if such a flaw is not something which can be fixed? That was my question.

When Leica produced the M8 with the faulty IR issue they offered IR cut filters to all original owners of the M8.

When Pentax produced the K5 and many had stains on the sensor the handled the issue. They also did the same for those (like myself) whose K5 mirror would activate, raise and lower when almost any button was pressed.

Fuji has a great camera in the X10 but it does have a very objectionable fault when it comes to handling specular highlights. I dare say that many early adopters of this camera would not have bought it if they had known of this issue.

I can deal with it but there are those who cannot because of what and how they shoot.. their return period may have lapsed and Fuji has not yet found a way to handle this issue via firmware. I know they are working on it.. but.... If they cannot handle the issue with a firmware update what are those who bought the camera going to be able to do with a camera that does not handle these specular highlights properly? In some cases it really does look like a white hole in the photo. It's just not acceptable. What should they reasonably expect Fuji to offer? Allow the camera be returned for a full refund? A rebate?

And please.. don't come at me with "Let the buyer beware."
 
Jono.. to answer your question....

Incidentally Jim - what happens if you take a picture of a running river with the sun beyond . . . . do you get shoals of blobs all over it? . . . I suppose it would make a difference from the purple spots that many cameras manage :)
Yes, you do... here is a sample I took on a sunny day at a small lake.. the issue is not as pronounced due to the lack of many ripples/waves but it is there. I can imagine this would be very objectionable for any photographer doing seascapes with specular highlights. I don't expect it to be perfect, Jono but I do expect it to be able to handle such highlights at least as well as other less expensive cameras. You may need to open this image full size in a new tab or browser window.

All in all this shot is not all that objectionable when viewed at a reduced size but look at it full size and you'll see that it's just not what most of us would expect from a camera. Also, try to imagine someone who shoots musical instruments (trombones, trumpets, tubas, Etc) or automobiles with lots of chrome.. pardon the pun, but it is not a pretty picture on subjects of that nature.

 
What do they owe us? A refund.

And if they want our business again, they'll fix the problem next time and find a way to convince us they have done so. No more than that, certainly.

It's a drag that manufacturers of goods in certain sectors see fit to beta test their products on early adopters, but it's how it works.

Having said that I love when I see manufacturers getting transparent, poking into forums, releasing firmware updates, and generally playing a good-faith game. Makes me want to buy their stuff.
 

Godfrey

Well-known member
Obviously you don't know my feelings about this camera. Nor do you know how much I shoot. I am quite happy with my X10. I use it a lot. It is probably the best small sensor compact camera I have owned. Visit the X10 section of my website.

Forget the Fuji X10 and let's look at a hypothetical situation. The camera maker delivers a camera with a flaw that does not show up until sometime after the return period is over. The flaw is such that the camera becomes very difficult to use and photos under certain conditions just do not render properly. What should we expect from the camera maker if such a flaw is not something which can be fixed? That was my question.

When Leica produced the M8 with the faulty IR issue they offered IR cut filters to all original owners of the M8.

When Pentax produced the K5 and many had stains on the sensor the handled the issue. They also did the same for those (like myself) whose K5 mirror would activate, raise and lower when almost any button was pressed.

Fuji has a great camera in the X10 but it does have a very objectionable fault when it comes to handling specular highlights. I dare say that many early adopters of this camera would not have bought it if they had known of this issue.

I can deal with it but there are those who cannot because of what and how they shoot.. their return period may have lapsed and Fuji has not yet found a way to handle this issue via firmware. I know they are working on it.. but.... If they cannot handle the issue with a firmware update what are those who bought the camera going to be able to do with a camera that does not handle these specular highlights properly? In some cases it really does look like a white hole in the photo. It's just not acceptable. What should they reasonably expect Fuji to offer? Allow the camera be returned for a full refund? A rebate?

And please.. don't come at me with "Let the buyer beware."
If enough users find some particular idiosyncrasy, defect or engineering flaw a problem, a manufacturer/distributor I like to work with will issue a statement or fix, if one is possible. It is an attempt at improving customer satisfaction and the perception of their intended audience by acting in good faith.

But they don't "owe" it to you as anything on a legal basis unless you and all the other customers initiate a class action suit and a court rules that the product was 'unfit for service' and awards compensations.

I have not heard many people complaining about the X10 other than you.
 

Terry

New member
I have not heard many people complaining about the X10 other than you.
Here was the initial info and Fuji's response. We haven't complained about it much over here but other forums are chock full of threads. This isn't something made up



http://www.dpreview.com/articles/4333175133/buyers-guide-enthusiast-raw-shooting-compact-cameras/3

As regards still image quality perhaps the only serious fly in the X10 ointment at present is an issue which has been discussed fairly widely among X10 owners, and relates to specular highlights. Simply put, the X10 renders clipped point highlights as disproportionally large, hard-edges 'orbs', which once you've started to notice them, are impossible to ignore.

We'll be looking into this issue, (you can read a statement from Fujifilm, and see more examples here) and of course we'll be running the X10 through our normal gamut of image quality tests as part of a full review of the camera in early 2012.


AND:

Company statement:

http://www.dpreview.com/news/2011/12/07/fujifilmplansfirmware (Worth it to check the samples in the link.)


Fujifilm has said it will attempt to address the problem of X10 images showing 'white discs' with a firmware update in response to customer concerns. The company statement comes in response to our enquiries about the problem, and confirms the phenomenon is caused by sensor 'blooming.' It claims the camera is working within prescribed tolerances and that the problem is not uncommon in other cameras but says that it plans updated firmware to 'lessen the effects' of the blooming. We have prepared a quick test of the issue (which we will cover in greater depth in the full review), showing the effects of Fujifilm's suggested ways of mitigating the issue.


'Fujifilm engineers have examined a number of sample shots and have concluded that the camera is working within prescribed tolerances. The blooming issue is something not uncommon to many types of digital camera. It is possible to reduce the effects of blooming either by increasing the ISO or widening the dynamic range on the camera.

However, after receiving a number of comments from users, we can understand their concern and plan a firmware upgrade to lessen the effects of blooming. We will announce in due course when the upgrade will be available.'








.
 

Lars

Active member
Laws vary by country.

In many countries you can return a purchase for a full refund within a limited time - either by law or at the dealer's discretion.

Many countries also have consumer protection in the form of a mandatory warranty against manufacturing defects. In this case that's a tricky one though - Fuji's carefully worded statement does not admit to any manufacturing defects.

I'd say that this is a problem caused by design or engineering decisions rather than quality control. so the best course of action is to return the camera if possible, and to be vocal about the problems. This is exactly what people are doing.
 
But they don't "owe" it to you as anything on a legal basis unless you and all the other customers initiate a class action suit and a court rules that the product was 'unfit for service' and awards compensations.

I have not heard many people complaining about the X10 other than you.
Oh for crying out loud, Godfrey, you know what I mean when I said "owe".. don't play word games and delve into semantics.. if that's what you enjoy then you should spend more time at DPReview.

And as for your statement above about not hearing anyone complain about the issue but me... well, you must not spend much time in any forum but this one. Have you not heard that Fuji is investigating the problem?

Read my lips.... I said I like the X10. I am keeping the X10 because I like it and enjoy using it. I am not keeping it so I can complain about it.. get real, sir.
 

Bob

Administrator
Staff member
I am not sure what they owe us but I do do know that we owe them scorn and a distinct lack of future business when they get it wrong and do not make it right but to be fair we do owe them time.
Even better a careful evaluation of what we might buy before we put our money on the line is fair too.
-bob
 

Bob

Administrator
Staff member
Oh for crying out loud, Godfrey, you know what I mean when I said "owe".. don't play word games and delve into semantics.. if that's what you enjoy then you should spend more time at DPReview.

And as for your statement above about not hearing anyone complain about the issue but me... well, you must not spend much time in any forum but this one. Have you not heard that Fuji is investigating the problem?

Read my lips.... I said I like the X10. I am keeping the X10 because I like it and enjoy using it. I am not keeping it so I can complain about it.. get real, sir.
Lets not fight over only this.
One reason I like image threads or pure tech so much better.
Oh and Godfrey this is aimed at you too ;-)
-bob
 
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