The GetDPI Photography Forum

Great to see you here. Join our insightful photographic forum today and start tapping into a huge wealth of photographic knowledge. Completing our simple registration process will allow you to gain access to exclusive content, add your own topics and posts, share your work and connect with other members through your own private inbox! And don’t forget to say hi!

What do camera makers owe us when they get it wrong?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Godfrey

Well-known member
Oh for crying out loud, Godfrey, you know what I mean when I said "owe".. don't play word games and delve into semantics.. if that's what you enjoy then you should spend more time at DPReview.

And as for your statement above about not hearing anyone complain about the issue but me... well, you must not spend much time in any forum but this one. Have you not heard that Fuji is investigating the problem?

Read my lips.... I said I like the X10. I am keeping the X10 because I like it and enjoy using it. I am not keeping it so I can complain about it.. get real, sir.
Word games and semantics? I'm just puzzled as hell as to what the point of your question is.

Terry just posted the notices from Fuji which I hadn't seen. So it seems like they are doing just as I suggested they ought to ... trying to do their best to keep customers happy.

I read about six-seven different photographic forums ... I hadn't seen any of this about the Fuji X10, sorry. Most of them talk about Photography, not equipment. But I'm glad Fuji is responding, which it seems you knew about already.

I don't own a Fuji X10. As much as you seem to be enamored of it, Jim, it is not a camera that appeals to me at all. Therefore I don't keep up with the nattering and complaining on the DPR Fuji forum, where everyone seems to complain about everything. It's nice that you like it so much, and the photos you've made with it seem very nice. However, whether you like it or I don't is not terribly relevant to the question you posed:

When a camera manufacturer produces a camera with an unacceptable, unrepairable, unfixable issue.. What do they owe us? What are our rights?
That seems to be pretty cut and dried as questions go, pretty specific. That's what I'm responding to.

So what was the point of your question, please?

When I say someone "owes" me, I mean I expect a check Real Soon ... it's part of some sort of contractual obligation. When I ask what my "rights" are, well, I'm looking for a legal entitlement. Quoting Merriam-Webster with the appropriate definitions:

owe verb [ with obj. ]
have an obligation to pay or repay (something, esp. money) in return for something received: they have denied they owe money to the company
rights noun
a moral or legal entitlement to have or obtain something or to act in a certain way: [ with infinitive ] : she had every right to be angry | you're quite within your rights to ask for your money back | there is no right of appeal against the decision.
• (rights) the authority to perform, publish, film, or televise a particular work, event, etc.: they sold the paperback rights.
I don't know what else you question is supposed to mean, ok?
 

Godfrey

Well-known member
Lets not fight over only this.
One reason I like image threads or pure tech so much better.
Oh and Godfrey this is aimed at you too ;-)
-bob
Ah, sorry bob: I had Jim's reply on the screen, made dinner, and just responded. I didn't see your comments until the page refreshed.

I'll unsubscribe from the thread.
 

Jorgen Udvang

Subscriber Member
Simple solution: Don't be an early adopter. Buy last year's model. This goes for anything from electric toothbrushes to fighter airplanes.

I know, I know; taking decent photo with ancient, outdated technology isn't easy, and all the wizz-bang of the latest, greatest is sooo helpful in the process of getting the utmost from our creative potential. Still, I don't think it's fair to blame the camera manufacturers for bringing new technology to the market before it has been thoroughly tested. Few places do I read about "too little, too late" as often as on camera fora.
 

RichA

New member
Anyone remember the 1DIII debacle?
Or Leica's M8 IR debacle? A (then) $8000 camera with faulty IR filtering. Their solution was a free set of filters for the fronts of lenses!! You are lucky to get $3500 for a used one now. Camera companies weigh the cost of repair against lost future sales and come to a conclusion based on that. Fuji has dispensed with those customers who are disgruntled.
Technically, under "lemon laws" you should be entitled to some kind of recourse to fix/remedy the problem.
 

250swb

Member
If there are no perfect cameras I don't understand by what criteria Fuji owe anybody anything. The cup holder in my car isn't close enough, what does the car manufacturer owe me? Just don't buy another Fuji, vote with your wallet.

This culture of needing to be compensated for life's irritations breeds some pathetic scenario's, and this is one. You have every right to be annoyed if you bought an X10, otherwise thats about it. But it seems mankinds resilience towards setbacks is being fast erroded after 40,000 years of evolution, flushed down the drain by threads such as this.

Steve
 

Godfrey

Well-known member
If there are no perfect cameras I don't understand by what criteria Fuji owe anybody anything. The cup holder in my car isn't close enough, what does the car manufacturer owe me? Just don't buy another Fuji, vote with your wallet.

This culture of needing to be compensated for life's irritations breeds some pathetic scenario's, and this is one. You have every right to be annoyed if you bought an X10, otherwise thats about it. But it seems mankinds resilience towards setbacks is being fast erroded after 40,000 years of evolution, flushed down the drain by threads such as this.
Couldn't agree more, Steve. :)

BTW, I'm testing one of the Fuji X10 cameras at present. So far, it's proving to be quite an interesting camera. I haven't seen one of these specular flying saucers yet, but then I am always careful about any scene with a bunch of specular reflection in it.

Have to say it does a darn good job on sensitivity, noise and detail for a camera with such a small sensor, and the lens demonstrates some pretty amazing flare control. Here's a link to a dynamic range torture test with the EXR DR priority mode, straight out of the camera:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/25268645/111231-1046.jpg

No exposure compensation, no processing, nothing. That's quite stunning.

It's biggest lack far as I'm concerned is the very small amount of focus zone control you can get with it. Is that another design flaw?
 
L

Landshark

Guest
So the camera has some issues some times with specular highlights, so, every camera has issues and does somethings worse and somethings better than another camera. Did Fuji sell the camera has being the camera for capturing specular highlights, if they can do a firmware upgrade great if not then this not the camera for shoot shimmering highlights with.
 

Terry

New member
Couldn't agree more, Steve. :)

BTW, I'm testing one of the Fuji X10 cameras at present. So far, it's proving to be quite an interesting camera. I haven't seen one of these specular flying saucers yet, but then I am always careful about any scene with a bunch of specular reflection in it.

Have to say it does a darn good job on sensitivity, noise and detail for a camera with such a small sensor, and the lens demonstrates some pretty amazing flare control. Here's a link to a dynamic range torture test with the EXR DR priority mode, straight out of the camera:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/25268645/111231-1046.jpg

No exposure compensation, no processing, nothing. That's quite stunning.

It's biggest lack far as I'm concerned is the very small amount of focus zone control you can get with it. Is that another design flaw?
If you set the camera Medium sized files and ISO 100 and DR400 you can shoot those files in RAW.
 

Godfrey

Well-known member
If you set the camera Medium sized files and ISO 100 and DR400 you can shoot those files in RAW.
Thanks, good to know. I haven't studied all the options yet, just starting to explore it.

I still find the GXR form factor and controls significantly better than the Fuji X10/X100. The Fuji layout some how just seems somehow cramped and fiddly by comparison. The sensor performs well ... been mucking through a few test shots from today's walk and they're quite nice. I'd considered trying a Ricoh S10 24-72 camera unit, but the Fuji's manual zoom and optical viewfinder coupled with their sensor piqued my curiosity.

Processing the raw files in Lightroom v3.6 demonstrates quite a lot of sensitivity to the luminance noise reduction and sharpening controls: just a hair too much and you get some "clumped" artifacts appearing. However with a judicious hand you can get very smooth results even at high ISO (I've been playing with up to ISO 800 so far, quite high for a 2/3" sensor).
 

Terry

New member
And by the way you shoot this way in regular PASM not in the EXR mode on the dial. You will be hard pressed to figure that out from the manual. It isn't really there. The RAW file will still be the same size as a regular 12mp file but will not be the same pixel dimensions because of the combination.
 

Dale Allyn

New member
Couldn't agree more, Steve. :)

BTW, I'm testing one of the Fuji X10 cameras at present. So far, it's proving to be quite an interesting camera. I haven't seen one of these specular flying saucers yet, but then I am always careful about any scene with a bunch of specular reflection in it.

Have to say it does a darn good job on sensitivity, noise and detail for a camera with such a small sensor, and the lens demonstrates some pretty amazing flare control. Here's a link to a dynamic range torture test with the EXR DR priority mode, straight out of the camera:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/25268645/111231-1046.jpg

No exposure compensation, no processing, nothing. That's quite stunning.

It's biggest lack far as I'm concerned is the very small amount of focus zone control you can get with it. Is that another design flaw?
I bought the X10 (after reading the various posts regarding the "blobs"). I love the form-factor, menus are acceptable, love the dial layout on the top deck, etc. I returned the camera after my tests because I was disappointed by capture detail. I'm hoping it was a weak copy (poor lens, etc.) because I've seen some very nice files from the X10 (for a small-sensor camera). My copy was rather weak on the wide end, though acceptable at the long end. The smeared look and lack of detail was a disappointment for how I intend to use it.

The "blob" specular highlights issue is real, but not a real concern to me (i.e. not a deal breaker) though it isn't a great feature. Blown highlights suck anyway, and my style of shooting isn't prone to such.

I plan to reorder the X10, hoping to get one from a new batch after waiting a bit. I'm also very interested in what the LX1 turns out to be, and will give it a go, when and if it becomes available.

Keep us posted on your observations, Godfrey.
 

kevinparis

Member
You mean like what Adobe is trying to do now? No thanks. I will find another provider of software and gear.

just a minor point.....but you actually don't own any software you have bought in the last 25 years at least... you only have bought a licence to use it.. if you actually read the small print of that agreement that you always click through and agree before installing you will find that basically they promise you nothing...just the right to install it as it is


K
 

Godfrey

Well-known member
I bought the X10 (after reading the various posts regarding the "blobs"). I love the form-factor, menus are acceptable, love the dial layout on the top deck, etc. I returned the camera after my tests because I was disappointed by capture detail. I'm hoping it was a weak copy (poor lens, etc.) because I've seen some very nice files from the X10 (for a small-sensor camera). My copy was rather weak on the wide end, though acceptable at the long end. The smeared look and lack of detail was a disappointment for how I intend to use it.

The "blob" specular highlights issue is real, but not a real concern to me (i.e. not a deal breaker) though it isn't a great feature. Blown highlights suck anyway, and my style of shooting isn't prone to such.

I plan to reorder the X10, hoping to get one from a new batch after waiting a bit. I'm also very interested in what the LX1 turns out to be, and will give it a go, when and if it becomes available.

Keep us posted on your observations, Godfrey.
Not sure I'm going to keep it yet either. It is nice and returns nice results, but I find it a bit clumsy in use.

Some results from today..

http://gallery.me.com/godders?view=grid#100431&bgcolor=black&view=grid
 

Dale Allyn

New member
Not sure I'm going to keep it yet either. It is nice and returns nice results, but I find it a bit clumsy in use.

Some results from today..

http://gallery.me.com/godders?view=grid#100431&bgcolor=black&view=grid
Godfrey,

Thanks for sharing your images from today. I found the handling pretty good for my hands (for a compact). I had the hood and found that cradling the X10 in the left hand, palm up, etc., works very nicely for me for such a compact camera. My intended use is/was to replace such tools as the Canon S95, which I find way too small and touchy to mis-handling (regarding buttons being activated accidentally, etc.). Plus, I'm a viewfinder guy. I HATE using viewfinder-less cameras like the S95, although I do tend to shoot using the LCD from time to time.

I'd spend another $400 or $500 for an X10-like camera with better image quality, but if I can get one with a better lens delivering good results from 7.1 - 28.4mm I'll keep it. I like what Fuji is offering, although there is room for refinement IMO.
 

Godfrey

Well-known member
At the risk of sounding biased, the GXR's handling is simply the best of any small camera I've used, and with the EVF fitted becomes an excellent eye level camera

The primary reason for my interest in the x10 is the fast short zoom coupled with a decent optical VF and the unusual sensor technology. It might work out for me.
 

Dale Allyn

New member
The primary reason for my interest in the x10 is the fast short zoom coupled with a decent optical VF and the unusual sensor technology. It might work out for me.
Godfrey, this is similar to my thoughts, although I do like the form-factor and the retro controls – not as a style (fashion) thing, but as an interface preference.
 
Last edited:

fotografz

Well-known member
Over in DPReview the Fuji forum has been somewhat of a hornet's nest for the last three weeks due to the way the Fuji X10 handles specular highlights, which in a few words is... not very well.

Before I go further with this let me state that this issue has not ruined a single one of my photos and that I like and enjoy using the X10. I do plan on keeping it. It does so many things well. The problem is that, to some, the speuclar highlight issue is a real problem. Photographing musical instruments, cars, boats, seascapes, architecture, anything which might catch direct sunlight on a highly reflective surface will present orbs or blobs of light rather than a more acceptable star burst effect in the photo.

Here is a simple example of how the X10 renders these highlights. :wtf: Not quite what we are used to getting.. and I have seen worse examples than this one. You can imagine how this would play out for those who do seascapes on bright, sunny days as well as those who do night photography in cities.



Fuji is aware of the issue and is working on a firmware tweak. I hesitate to use the word "fix" because I am not sure it can be fixed as this issue appears to be a characteristic of the sensor used in the X10.

So my question is this:

When a camera manufacturer produces a camera with an unacceptable, unrepairable, unfixable issue.. What do they owe us? What are our rights? There are Lemmon Laws for cars but not sure if there is equal protection for consumers where cameras are concerned. I'm not suggesting the X10 is a lemmon by any means but there are those who will based on the issue with specular highlights.


[1]Should we be able to return the camera for a total refund if no fix is available?

[2]Will there be a limit on the amount of time in which we are free to return a flawed camera: two weeks, three weeks, months?

[3]Should Fuji offer a cash rebate for those who bought the camera but wish to keep it rather than ask for a refund if there is no fix?

I pose the question only because I know many will return the camera. Many, like myself, will keep the camera. So for those who feel the camera is flawed and unfixable, what will be their recourse? If Fuji's work/fix on this issue is still not acceptable where does that leave an unhappy consumer who may have had the camera longer than a stores specified return period?
I think this type of thing has become more prevalent in the rush to market new products at an ever increasing intervals ... basically products are being beta tested by consumers.

The camera companies have been capitalizing on consumer's growing habit of changing their cameras like changing their underwear ... especially cameras that don't involve major systems investments. Here today, gone today. Some novelty grabs the consumer's interest, it enjoys a rush of popularity by earlier adopters, some flaw is discovered, but by then the initial R&D is paid for and some profit realized, the company fixes what they can on said product to recover as much good will as they can, then rushes off to the next NEW thing to repeat the cycle.

I'm not suggesting this is malicious and deliberate methodology, however, I find it hard to believe that a camera/lens engineer wouldn't catch flaws of this type with any degree of real-world application. If they are, then someone else in the product chain is over-riding them ... probably marketing types.

We are as much to blame as the camera makers, Saying that "no camera can do everything well", just lets them off the hook. I mean, come on! ... some things are fundamental. After decades of making SLRs, the Canon 5D's mirror falls out? The 1DMK-III "sports" camera can't focus on CAF? The M8 can't photograph synthetic fabrics? ... and so on ... really? I mean ... REALLY?

Some may well feel that this specific flaw is no big deal? Again ... really? Specular highlights are everywhere, and are already a challenge with digital capture. Why on earth would you accept worst performance?

The only way to stop this behavior is to immediately return the device ... doesn't matter if the company or the retailer takes the hit ... it'll send a message.

I'll bet a dollar to a donut that will NOT happen ... we've become sheep that are experts in justifying mistakes of others by putting up with it ... so why should the companies change their money making ways of doing things?

-Marc
 

TRSmith

Subscriber Member
I think it's entirely possible that someone, somewhere, will find an artistic use for those "unique" specular highlights, turning a flaw into an aesthetic approach.

I can't speak for what the camera companies might owe the early adopters of new cameras, but I certainly feel as if I owe them a debt. They save me so much money and aggravation.

Tim
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top