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What do camera makers owe us when they get it wrong?

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vieri

Well-known member
I think this type of thing has become more prevalent in the rush to market new products at an ever increasing intervals ... basically products are being beta tested by consumers.

The camera companies have been capitalizing on consumer's growing habit of changing their cameras like changing their underwear ... especially cameras that don't involve major systems investments. Here today, gone today. Some novelty grabs the consumer's interest, it enjoys a rush of popularity by earlier adopters, some flaw is discovered, but by then the initial R&D is paid for and some profit realized, the company fixes what they can on said product to recover as much good will as they can, then rushes off to the next NEW thing to repeat the cycle.

I'm not suggesting this is malicious and deliberate methodology, however, I find it hard to believe that a camera/lens engineer wouldn't catch flaws of this type with any degree of real-world application. If they are, then someone else in the product chain is over-riding them ... probably marketing types.

We are as much to blame as the camera makers, Saying that "no camera can do everything well", just lets them off the hook. I mean, come on! ... some things are fundamental. After decades of making SLRs, the Canon 5D's mirror falls out? The 1DMK-III "sports" camera can't focus on CAF? The M8 can't photograph synthetic fabrics? ... and so on ... really? I mean ... REALLY?

Some may well feel that this specific flaw is no big deal? Again ... really? Specular highlights are everywhere, and are already a challenge with digital capture. Why on earth would you accept worst performance?

The only way to stop this behavior is to immediately return the device ... doesn't matter if the company or the retailer takes the hit ... it'll send a message.

I'll bet a dollar to a donut that will NOT happen ... we've become sheep that are experts in justifying mistakes of others by putting up with it ... so why should the companies change their money making ways of doing things?

-Marc
Wonderfully said Marc. Let me add that this sheepish behavior becomes the more embarrassing to observe when you add some fanboy-sm to it as it happens with brands like Leica, for instance; both after the M8 & after the M9 release, reading (let alone participating in) the LUF and similar fanboy fora became really painful :D Seeing people condoning M8's "features" like the need for added IR filters for shooting fabrics, all the shutter problems etc and trying to justify them, as well as the cracked sensor on the M9's first batch (I mean, REALLY!!), etc etc one wonders where we got to as users; as you said, we as customers (a general we, of course, present company excluded :D ) are as much to blame as the manufacturers for the sorry state of affairs we got to.
 

Godfrey

Well-known member
Godfrey, this is similar to my thoughts, although I do like the form-factor and the retro controls – not as a style (fashion) thing, but as an interface preference.
Hmm.

I find the EV Compensation control particularly poorly devised. It's too high and too far to the right on the body, and too heavily clicked stopped, for easy and precise use. That's the control I most want instant access and quick, easy, precise operation of when I'm actually making a shot looking at the LCD or through the viewfinder. I find it fussy to use, it requires I look down at the camera and look what I'm setting carefully, change my hand position on the body, etc. I wish they'd put it on the primary control wheel and used the top mounted wheel for aperture or shutter time setting instead. I usually set those before I'm looking at the LCD or have the camera to my eye.

That's one example of where I find this design clumsy. Another simple one: why do the menus require I press a 'back' button to commit and exit menu mode, rather than the central 'ok' button? Another, slower, 'have to stop and think a moment' design flaw.

Yeah, our minds and fingers adapt. I've not used the camera enough yet. That's why now is when I like to write down what I find so I can compare later and see whether they really are much of a concern later on, if I keep it. :)

And others may like these design flaws too. Or may not experience them due to how they use the camera. Is the manufacturer beta testing with them because they're looking for the Godfreys in the marketplace? ];-)
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Wonderfully said Marc. Let me add that this sheepish behavior becomes the more embarrassing to observe when you add some fanboy-sm to it as it happens with brands like Leica, for instance; both after the M8 & after the M9 release, reading (let alone participating in) the LUF and similar fanboy fora became really painful :D Seeing people condoning M8's "features" like the need for added IR filters for shooting fabrics, all the shutter problems etc and trying to justify them, as well as the cracked sensor on the M9's first batch (I mean, REALLY!!), etc etc one wonders where we got to as users; as you said, we as customers (a general we, of course, present company excluded :D ) are as much to blame as the manufacturers for the sorry state of affairs we got to.
Yeah, as an early adopter, I was one of the initial whistle blowers on the M8. The first wedding I shot, all the Tuxes were magenta ... I thought I had been transported back to the 1970s :eek:. All the weasel worded denials, blame games, and finger pointing afterwards was a tragic thing to witness.

Just like Fuji's weaseled response: "... is working with-in prescribed tolerances." Really? Who's prescribed tolerances would that be?

I'm not proposing that cameras will not have QC production issues, that's always been part of buying anything ... it's the undiscovered design or engineering issues that seem to be getting more common, and "workarounds" or passive acceptance seem to the acceptable by-product.

It may be just the way it is in today's dog-eat-dog camera marketing world ... racing headlong to serve super impatient, gimme it now tech junkies ;) I think they actually count on slippage ... the concept where a percentage of buyers will let the fault ride, so the fix isn't as expensive as getting it right in the first place.

I just love the notion of some company people biting their finger nails as they launch a new camera ... worried whether some fault will rear its head as soon as it goes to market ... poor things. No sympathy or cry-baby hankie from me anymore.

Maybe they should test the crap out of a production model BEFORE rushing to market rather than letting us do that for them?

-Marc
 

Dale Allyn

New member
Hmm.

I find the EV Compensation control particularly poorly devised. It's too high and too far to the right on the body, and too heavily clicked stopped, for easy and precise use. That's the control I most want instant access and quick, easy, precise operation of when I'm actually making a shot looking at the LCD or through the viewfinder. I find it fussy to use, it requires I look down at the camera and look what I'm setting carefully, change my hand position on the body, etc. I wish they'd put it on the primary control wheel and used the top mounted wheel for aperture or shutter time setting instead. I usually set those before I'm looking at the LCD or have the camera to my eye.

That's one example of where I find this design clumsy. Another simple one: why do the menus require I press a 'back' button to commit and exit menu mode, rather than the central 'ok' button? Another, slower, 'have to stop and think a moment' design flaw.

Yeah, our minds and fingers adapt. I've not used the camera enough yet. That's why now is when I like to write down what I find so I can compare later and see whether they really are much of a concern later on, if I keep it. :)

And others may like these design flaws too. Or may not experience them due to how they use the camera. Is the manufacturer beta testing with them because they're looking for the Godfreys in the marketplace? ];-)
Godfrey: these are design dilemmas which affect every product and service. A good UX (User Experience) should always be the precise goal, but each user has slightly different needs, preferences or use-cases. The trick is in the balance. ;) I like the hard clicks of the dial on top and wish the other dials exhibited similar detents. I hate the larger round dial on the back (and on all cameras) because it moves too easily. You see I use this camera (and similar compacts) primarily hiking in the Sierras or other applications where it comes in and out of storage. There's nothing worse to me than raise the camera to my eye and learn that all the settings have changed (see the Canon 5D after carrying on shoulder for a short while).

In a perfect world (to me) the X10 would have EV comp in the viewfinder. Like you, I use it a lot. Aside from aperture setting I would say it's my most used function on such a camera.

In the case of the X10, dial/button placement is constrained by body size and layout success is materially affected by users' hand sizes.

As for the menus: yeah, there's some weird stuff there, but I'm okay with the quirks for my uses. However, if I were designing the UI it would not be this model and I suspect that you and I would have similar requirements there. Fuji's menu designs choices (and overall UI) are a bit of a mystery to me, but unlike some projects (like building web interfaces and such) I'm not emotionally invested in the Fuji line. I'm just looking for a great compact and will adapt somewhat. How much I'm willing to adapt has its limits though. :)
 
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L

Landshark

Guest
Hmm.

I find the EV Compensation control particularly poorly devised. It's too high and too far to the right on the body, and too heavily clicked stopped, for easy and precise use. That's the control I most want instant access and quick, easy, precise operation of when I'm actually making a shot looking at the LCD or through the viewfinder. I find it fussy to use, it requires I look down at the camera and look what I'm setting carefully, change my hand position on the body, etc. I wish they'd put it on the primary control wheel and used the top mounted wheel for aperture or shutter time setting instead. I usually set those before I'm looking at the LCD or have the camera to my eye.

That's one example of where I find this design clumsy. Another simple one: why do the menus require I press a 'back' button to commit and exit menu mode, rather than the central 'ok' button? Another, slower, 'have to stop and think a moment' design flaw.

Yeah, our minds and fingers adapt. I've not used the camera enough yet. That's why now is when I like to write down what I find so I can compare later and see whether they really are much of a concern later on, if I keep it. :)

And others may like these design flaws too. Or may not experience them due to how they use the camera. Is the manufacturer beta testing with them because they're looking for the Godfreys in the marketplace? ];-)
I like the location and the heavy detent of the wheel that way it does not change by mistake, the control wheel moves too easily that is why i also like that Fuji let's me lock it.
One my GXR I have had to turn off the zoom adj lever because of how many times it would change the exp compensation setting, Each of us hold and use a camera differently some we like some we don't. For me personally this specular highlight issue has made to seem like a much bigger problem than it is, but that is just me I guess,
 

Godfrey

Well-known member
...
Maybe they should test the crap out of a production model BEFORE rushing to market rather than letting us do that for them?
Were you willing to wait another two years for the M8 to be delivered?
Or another two months for a Fuji X100?

Half the people yammering about these flaws on the internet would have bought something else if they had to wait another day for the latest and greatest to appear. And then they'd bad mouth Leica or Fuji for their "slow, sluggish delivery" too. There's no winning this game.

I believe all the companies are trying to deliver the best products they can. And, just like human beings, they make mistakes, they get in a rush, they forget to test particular things, etc etc etc. Because after all, all of these companies are nothing more than fallible human beings making stuff. And they try to cover their collective asses with excuses and denials when a bad mistake gets out while they scramble to come up with a solution that won't piss everyone off.

Sorta like politicians, eh? ;-)

No manufactured thing has ever been perfect, and none ever will be. Most work pretty darn well, and all have some wart or briar patch you have to learn to live with and avoid. That's life.
 

Godfrey

Well-known member
... The trick is in the balance. ...

... I'm just looking for a great compact and will adapt somewhat. How much I'm willing to adapt has its limits though.
Yup ...

... Unfortunately, you don't have many options other than to wait or to tolerate. Or do without. Regards the X10, because I have the Ricoh GXR, doing without wouldn't be too much of a hardship. At least with the GXR, in the situation you describe, the controls would not have been moved since you last had the camera out, if you powered it off, because the buttons that control EV Compensation won't change anything with the power off. And the Mode Selector locks in position too.

While the EV Comp dial works for you, it's the one of the few things about the X10 that I really find annoying as heck. I can't just lightly click-click to where I want it to go, I get it wrong unless I look and move it deliberately.

I'll adapt, or the camera won't stick around very long. It's not a big deal ... it's just another camera.

:)
 

jonoslack

Active member
I'm not proposing that cameras will not have QC production issues, that's always been part of buying anything ... it's the undiscovered design or engineering issues that seem to be getting more common, and "workarounds" or passive acceptance seem to the acceptable by-product.

It may be just the way it is in today's dog-eat-dog camera marketing world ... racing headlong to serve super impatient, gimme it now tech junkies ;) I think they actually count on slippage ... the concept where a percentage of buyers will let the fault ride, so the fix isn't as expensive as getting it right in the first place.

I just love the notion of some company people biting their finger nails as they launch a new camera ... worried whether some fault will rear its head as soon as it goes to market ... poor things. No sympathy or cry-baby hankie from me anymore.

Maybe they should test the crap out of a production model BEFORE rushing to market rather than letting us do that for them?

-Marc
Hmmm - the reason that they can't test the crap out of it BEFORE rushing to market (at least in the case of the M8) is that they couldn't afford to - if you remember rightly they were on the brink of catastrophe. I've no idea who knew what, but I find the whole concept of 'whistle blowers' rather distasteful. The cracked sensor was definitely a QA production issue - hard to have anticipated.. . I guess that just saying this makes me an apologist!

I don't believe things are worse than they were - in fact, I'm pretty sure they're much better - it's just that a few years ago problems like this really didn't come to light for ages - and even when they did, it was only to a select few. The internet has made these kind of issues immediately obvious to everyone.

As consumers we DEMAND perfection at a sensible price - the competition is extreme, and I think we often get better than we deserve - which, generally speaking is pretty good.

I find all this zipless and brutal criticism pretty distasteful myself. Nobody wants to release a faulty product, and one assumes that even if they do it on purpose in the final analysis, it's because they have no choice.

It's quite simple really:

If you don't want to be a beta tester - don't buy early

Obviously, I'm really pleased that this information comes to light - the internet is a wonderful vehicle for it. But I'm afraid I live in a glass house, and throwing stones is against my principles. I'm amazed at everyone who seems to find it so easy.
 

Godfrey

Well-known member
And others like me would consider the way you want it flawed. I think design decision would have been a bit nicer way to put it.
That was supposed to be a tongue in cheek comment, Terry. Do I really have to be so PC in this banter amongst friends?
 

Godfrey

Well-known member
I find all this zipless and brutal criticism pretty distasteful myself. Nobody wants to release a faulty product, and one assumes that even if they do it on purpose in the final analysis, it's because they have no choice.
+1

Well put, Jono.
 

Terry

New member
That was supposed to be a tongue in cheek comment, Terry. Do I really have to be so PC in this banter amongst friends?
Didn't read that way to me and it is one of the features I like best on the camera. Also, in terms of smaller sensor cameras, it is probably the least cramped for controls of many of the competitors (LX-5, S100, XZ-1). I love the controls on the left. I'm a lefty so finally something useful I can do with that hand. So to each his own.
 

retow

Member
Hmmm - the reason that they can't test the crap out of it BEFORE rushing to market (at least in the case of the M8) is that they couldn't afford to - if you remember rightly they were on the brink of catastrophe. I've no idea who knew what, but I find the whole concept of 'whistle blowers' rather distasteful. The cracked sensor was definitely a QA production issue - hard to have anticipated.. . I guess that just saying this makes me an apologist!

I don't believe things are worse than they were - in fact, I'm pretty sure they're much better - it's just that a few years ago problems like this really didn't come to light for ages - and even when they did, it was only to a select few. The internet has made these kind of issues immediately obvious to everyone.

As consumers we DEMAND perfection at a sensible price - the competition is extreme, and I think we often get better than we deserve - which, generally speaking is pretty good.

I find all this zipless and brutal criticism pretty distasteful myself. Nobody wants to release a faulty product, and one assumes that even if they do it on purpose in the final analysis, it's because they have no choice.

It's quite simple really:

If you don't want to be a beta tester - don't buy early

Obviously, I'm really pleased that this information comes to light - the internet is a wonderful vehicle for it. But I'm afraid I live in a glass house, and throwing stones is against my principles. I'm amazed at everyone who seems to find it so easy.
It's not necessarily throwing stones here as expectations are based on consumer and market experiences with other manufacturers' products and not on wishful thinking. E.g. Sony NEX series and Nikon N1 are recent products with no technical teething issues (which does not mean they are perfect, but that's a different discussion). It is interesting that some camera makers seem less "lucky" when it comes to release technically flawless products into the market place, Leica has been mentioned (M8, M9, X1) and Fuji (x100, x10). Both have to accept to be held to standards set by competition. That's all.
 

Shashin

Well-known member
Both have to accept to be held to standards set by competition. That's all.
No they don't. You don't like the product, return it. I am with Jono here, for the money you spend, you can't expect perfection. We should count ourselves lucky that these manufactures take these risks to give us these products. And I don't understand this position where folks sound personally insulted--return the product if you don't like it.
 

retow

Member
No they don't. You don't like the product, return it. I am with Jono here, for the money you spend, you can't expect perfection. We should count ourselves lucky that these manufactures take these risks to give us these products. And I don't understand this position where folks sound personally insulted--return the product if you don't like it.
We obviously talk about two different things. I suggest you read my post again to try understanding before jumping.
 

Godfrey

Well-known member
Didn't read that way to me and it is one of the features I like best on the camera. Also, in terms of smaller sensor cameras, it is probably the least cramped for controls of many of the competitors (LX-5, S100, XZ-1). I love the controls on the left. I'm a lefty so finally something useful I can do with that hand. So to each his own.
There was a devil smiley on the end of that paragraph ... usually meant to indicate an intentionally off-handed remark. Sorry if you've been offended.

The X10 is a much larger camera (relative terms of course) than the S100 and XZ-1. I hate both of them for their controls anyway, trying them out in the store they warranted less then four minutes gander before I handed them back and said, "Eh? Not for me."

Not having the review button on the left near my thumb is actually another irritation with the X10 for me (just like one of the things I dislike on the E-5 is having the MENU button on the left). It's an awkward hand motion for me to use it; with such a small camera as it is, having to operate something as simple as peeking at my photos with two hands seems ridiculous.

Yes, to each his/her own.
 

jonoslack

Active member
It's not necessarily throwing stones here
Actually - if you look back through the thread - there are some pretty big stones being hefted about - I wish I was self confident enough about what I do to be able to blithely obliterate others.

It is interesting that some camera makers seem less "lucky" when it comes to release technically flawless products into the market place, Leica has been mentioned (M8, M9, X1) and Fuji (x100, x10). Both have to accept to be held to standards set by competition. That's all.
Hmmm actually - I can see that there are real issues relating to the M8 and the x10.
I think the cracked sensor issue on the M9 was one of those unavoidable QC problems of a late developing issue with a 3rd party component in a limited batch - everything is subject to that. The answer is to fix it - which they did.

Was there a problem with the X1? (apart from people not liking it)
Was there a problem with the X100? (apart from people not liking it)
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Hmmm - the reason that they can't test the crap out of it BEFORE rushing to market (at least in the case of the M8) is that they couldn't afford to - if you remember rightly they were on the brink of catastrophe. I've no idea who knew what, but I find the whole concept of 'whistle blowers' rather distasteful. The cracked sensor was definitely a QA production issue - hard to have anticipated.. . I guess that just saying this makes me an apologist!

I don't believe things are worse than they were - in fact, I'm pretty sure they're much better - it's just that a few years ago problems like this really didn't come to light for ages - and even when they did, it was only to a select few. The internet has made these kind of issues immediately obvious to everyone.

As consumers we DEMAND perfection at a sensible price - the competition is extreme, and I think we often get better than we deserve - which, generally speaking is pretty good.

I find all this zipless and brutal criticism pretty distasteful myself. Nobody wants to release a faulty product, and one assumes that even if they do it on purpose in the final analysis, it's because they have no choice.

It's quite simple really:

If you don't want to be a beta tester - don't buy early

Obviously, I'm really pleased that this information comes to light - the internet is a wonderful vehicle for it. But I'm afraid I live in a glass house, and throwing stones is against my principles. I'm amazed at everyone who seems to find it so easy.
Jono, I think you are a politically correct enabler. You may think consumers should have bailed out Leica. That is your opinion, not mine. I've had a belly full of bailing out mega rich people and their companies.

If Leica couldn't bring a M8 to market without the huge flaw because they couldn't afford to get it right fast enough, who's problem is that? Well, they made it the consumer's problem by prematurely releasing a product that did NOT meet reasonable expectations for a $6,000 camera body. Not a "demand for perfection at a reasonable price" ... reasonable expectations at a lofty price. Big difference.

Your memory is also selective ... Leica initially denied the issue with legal-weasel responses ... not unlike Fuji's response on this issue.

RE: Throwing big stones, whistle blowers, and all the terms you find distasteful ... as if consumers did not have the right to express their frustration because they are not worthy in the face of the mighty corporations who, out of the graciousness of their good will, bring us an ever increasing avalanche of gizmos to keep our feeble minds occupied.

I personally don't care if you find "Whistle Blowers" a "distasteful" term ... if someone finds a HUGE flaw they should keep quiet about it? Let herds of other buyers buy without knowing? If the truth is "brutal" so what? It sure isn't going to get better by enabling errors to go unmentioned, or to use excuses and mealymouthed apologies on the behalf of some faceless corporation that has your money.

Glass house? Hey, it's my money and their product. I have to live and die on the photos I make. I make a bad product for a client, and guess what ... I'm out of business. They don't make excuses for me, bail me out with hat in hand ... they fire me AND demand their money back. That keeps you on your toes and working to retain their trust and confidence.

It's all an example of the new consumerism ... where an issue with a product becomes the consumer's problem, and the company hopes for complacency.

Honestly, I'm sick of it ... others may not be, that's their choice ... but do not expect it to get better if everyone lets it slide, and bails out the multimillion dollar corporation by enabling less than expected performance for the money paid.

And I sure as hell am not buying anything early anymore. I waited a year and a half before committing to the S2, over a year before upgrading my H4D (and tested the crap out of it before handing one penny to Hasselblad), and cancelled a NEX7 order.

Trust is earned, not a right. If a company abuses that trust ... there should be a consequence. Brutal? Throwing stones? Maybe, but it wasn't me who broke the trust, it was them.

-Marc
 

Shashin

Well-known member
Marc, you sound like modern camera are three legged ponies, which they are not.

Cameras companies are not "mighty" corporations and populated by few millionaires. (And being a professional, I do not walk into a shoot with an unproven camera. Nor do I walk in with a Fuji X10. And I have a backup.)

Actually, with my experience with these companies, at least the Japanese ones, they work really hard for their customers. And the customers keep wanting more and more for less and less. And these same customers will bail when the new hot model hits the streets.
 
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