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Thread: What do camera makers owe us when they get it wrong?

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    Senior Member Jim Radcliffe's Avatar
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    What do camera makers owe us when they get it wrong?

    Over in DPReview the Fuji forum has been somewhat of a hornet's nest for the last three weeks due to the way the Fuji X10 handles specular highlights, which in a few words is... not very well.

    Before I go further with this let me state that this issue has not ruined a single one of my photos and that I like and enjoy using the X10. I do plan on keeping it. It does so many things well. The problem is that, to some, the speuclar highlight issue is a real problem. Photographing musical instruments, cars, boats, seascapes, architecture, anything which might catch direct sunlight on a highly reflective surface will present orbs or blobs of light rather than a more acceptable star burst effect in the photo.

    Here is a simple example of how the X10 renders these highlights. Not quite what we are used to getting.. and I have seen worse examples than this one. You can imagine how this would play out for those who do seascapes on bright, sunny days as well as those who do night photography in cities.



    Fuji is aware of the issue and is working on a firmware tweak. I hesitate to use the word "fix" because I am not sure it can be fixed as this issue appears to be a characteristic of the sensor used in the X10.

    So my question is this:

    When a camera manufacturer produces a camera with an unacceptable, unrepairable, unfixable issue.. What do they owe us? What are our rights? There are Lemmon Laws for cars but not sure if there is equal protection for consumers where cameras are concerned. I'm not suggesting the X10 is a lemmon by any means but there are those who will based on the issue with specular highlights.


    [1]Should we be able to return the camera for a total refund if no fix is available?

    [2]Will there be a limit on the amount of time in which we are free to return a flawed camera: two weeks, three weeks, months?

    [3]Should Fuji offer a cash rebate for those who bought the camera but wish to keep it rather than ask for a refund if there is no fix?

    I pose the question only because I know many will return the camera. Many, like myself, will keep the camera. So for those who feel the camera is flawed and unfixable, what will be their recourse? If Fuji's work/fix on this issue is still not acceptable where does that leave an unhappy consumer who may have had the camera longer than a stores specified return period?
    Jim Radcliffe
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    Re: What do camera makers owe us when they get it wrong?

    Some day, maybe camera and optics makers will merely "license" or "rent" their products to end users.

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    Senior Member Jim Radcliffe's Avatar
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    Re: What do camera makers owe us when they get it wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by sirimiri View Post
    Some day, maybe camera and optics makers will merely "license" or "rent" their products to end users.
    You mean like what Adobe is trying to do now? No thanks. I will find another provider of software and gear.
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    Re: What do camera makers owe us when they get it wrong?

    Jim,

    If you are after "perfect camera" - I think you will get disappointed. No such animal exist. If you are not happy with X10, return it and purchase something that you do like. Or wait for something that would be better. Such is life - full of compromises.

    As Fuji is concerned, it is not at the profit margin of Leica or Phase where they could offer post hardware fixes after the product was released.

    Best of luck,
    Last edited by Agnius; 11th December 2011 at 10:50.

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    Re: What do camera makers owe us when they get it wrong?

    To answer the question directly: Nothing.

    If you buy a camera from a retailer with a satisfaction guarantee policy and evaluate it properly in the course of that time period, find it lacking, you return it.

    Otherwise, it's your responsibility, not the manufacturers', to either come up with a workaround or dispose of the equipment in preference for something that will do a better job for you.

    this is called 'voting with your wallet.' new equipment returns are typically reimbursed to the vendor by the manufacturer and later re-sold as refurbs at much lower profit to people for whom the issue you couldnt live with is not a problem.

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    Re: What do camera makers owe us when they get it wrong?

    I think if it was an issue that you didn't think would be fixed and impaired your ability to use the camera then I would suggest that people return the camera and wait to see if the issue gets fixed before rebuying.

    In this case, yes, as you demonstrated the issue exists. However, it hasn't caused a problem in any images that I've shot. Even in some of the examples posted at DPReview I had to actively look for the issue as for the most part it doesn't impact the overall view of the image.

    In the example you posted the problem area that you show looks very different in the context of the whole shot which at one point I saw posted. A lot of people have demonstrated the impact by looking for the worst case scenarios they could come up with and in the process made horrendously awful photos.

    So, getting back to the problem at hand....if the problem can't be fixed (to an acceptable degree - these are still specular highlights) then Fuji should allow returns on the product.

    The closest case that I've come across to a an issue somewhat like this didn't involve returns but a sensor failure a year or two into the life of the camera. Came from defective Sony 2/3 sensors and Panasonic and Leica both replaced the sensor on out of warranty cameras (LC1 and Digilux 2).
    Last edited by Terry; 11th December 2011 at 13:10.

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    Senior Member Jim Radcliffe's Avatar
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    Re: What do camera makers owe us when they get it wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnius View Post
    Jim,

    If you are after "perfect camera" - I think you will get disappointed. No such animal exist. If you are not happy with X10, return it and purchase something that you do like. Or wait for something that would be better. Such is life - full of compromises.

    As Fuji is concerned, it is not at the profit margin of Leica or Phase where they could offer post hardware fixes after the product was released.

    Best of luck,
    First, if you've read my blog or numerous other posts you know that I know there is not perfect camera... nor do I search for such a mystical item.

    Second, if Fuji or any other camera maker gets it wrong with hardware they are obligated to make it right or refund the purchase price. To do anything less will result in a negative PR image they will have a hard time shedding.
    Jim Radcliffe
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    Senior Member Jim Radcliffe's Avatar
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    Re: What do camera makers owe us when they get it wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    To answer the question directly: Nothing.
    Disagree, Godfrey... if there is a flaw in the camera.. such as the mirrior issues I had with the K5 they repair it free of charge.

    Fuji may not be able to repair this issue.

    With the sensor issue involving the x10 and the specular highlights, I'm not sure that there will be a fix and if not then Fuji is on the hook for a refund or possibly a price reduction. Truth is the camera does not perform as most other cameras perform under the same circumstances. (regarding specular highlights) I can see how this is totally unacceptable to some... to me, it's not a big issue but the point is the camera or sensor does not handle these highlights properly and the issue does need to be addressed.
    Jim Radcliffe
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    Re: What do camera makers owe us when they get it wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Radcliffe View Post
    Disagree, Godfrey... if there is a flaw in the camera.. such as the mirrior issues I had with the K5 they repair it free of charge.

    Fuji may not be able to repair this issue.

    With the sensor issue involving the x10 and the specular highlights, I'm not sure that there will be a fix and if not then Fuji is on the hook for a refund or possibly a price reduction. Truth is the camera does not perform as most other cameras perform under the same circumstances. (regarding specular highlights) I can see how this is totally unacceptable to some... to me, it's not a big issue but the point is the camera or sensor does not handle these highlights properly and the issue does need to be addressed.
    If there is a manufacturing flaw, that is covered by warranty. That's not what you were referring to with your question, or I with my response.

    You said, "When a camera manufacturer produces a camera with an unacceptable, unrepairable, unfixable issue.. " which implies a design problem that made it into finished goods, not a manufacturing defect.

    Design problems are an issue beyond the manufacturing defect which is covered by warranty. A good company will do its best to resolve such issues, but there is nothing that they "owe" the customers. The intent and effort to solve problems like this is up to the company and how prevalent an issue they perceive the problem to be, it's a matter of good faith rather than a 'right' of the customer to demand a solution by any implied legal mechanism.

    Various countries have laws which specify the degree to which a legal mechanism can be applied for compensation in the case of such design issues. However, I don't know of any that would consider a case in which, in some cases, a particular camera blows specular highlights a little more frequently than others to be anything that would infringe on the merchantability of the X10.

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    Re: What do camera makers owe us when they get it wrong?

    Interesting discussion
    Over here we don't have anything like your opportunity to return things within 30 days - sometimes a decent dealer will charge a re-stocking charge and take things back - very rarely (my X100) the dealer will agree that the camera could be construed as not 'fit for purpose' and take it back for a full refund.

    In the UK there is a definition of
    'fit for purpose'
    If it isn't, then you can request a refund.

    I would have thought that in this case you would be able to request a refund for the blobs . . . which would, incidentally, come from your dealer, and not from Fuji.

    On the other hand I rather agree with Agnius - no camera is perfect, and the internet sure finds out the faults quickly enough (it must be terrifying launching a new product . . . actually, I KNOW it's terrifying launching a new camera from having spoken with those that do) Those first few days waiting for the ravening hordes on the internet to find that there is a focusing problem - or worse still blobs must be terrifying indeed!

    Incidentally Jim - what happens if you take a picture of a running river with the sun beyond . . . . do you get shoals of blobs all over it? . . . I suppose it would make a difference from the purple spots that many cameras manage

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    Re: What do camera makers owe us when they get it wrong?

    How can it be argued that they "got it wrong" or that the camera it completely useless when there are lots of people who are quite happy with the camera and how it performs ??

    Do you really think there needs to be a pixel peeper's "lemon law" just for the small minority of people who spend more time on internet gear forums than actually shooting ?

    There is a minor issue, that hard core "enthusiast" may find makes it not a viable alternative for, but does that really mean its a useless product for any and all photographers ?

    If my admissions its not a useless product for any and all photographers, then how could it be said the minority that has an issue is owed anything ?

    Did this camera ever promise to be 100% flawless in any and all situations for photographers at every given level ?

    Or is it instead just a consumer point and shoot camera thats perfectly acceptable for 95% of its buyers ?

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    Senior Member Jim Radcliffe's Avatar
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    Re: What do camera makers owe us when they get it wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Millsart View Post
    How can it be argued that they "got it wrong" or that the camera it completely useless when there are lots of people who are quite happy with the camera and how it performs ??

    Do you really think there needs to be a pixel peeper's "lemon law" just for the small minority of people who spend more time on internet gear forums than actually shooting ?
    Obviously you don't know my feelings about this camera. Nor do you know how much I shoot. I am quite happy with my X10. I use it a lot. It is probably the best small sensor compact camera I have owned. Visit the X10 section of my website.

    Forget the Fuji X10 and let's look at a hypothetical situation. The camera maker delivers a camera with a flaw that does not show up until sometime after the return period is over. The flaw is such that the camera becomes very difficult to use and photos under certain conditions just do not render properly. What should we expect from the camera maker if such a flaw is not something which can be fixed? That was my question.

    When Leica produced the M8 with the faulty IR issue they offered IR cut filters to all original owners of the M8.

    When Pentax produced the K5 and many had stains on the sensor the handled the issue. They also did the same for those (like myself) whose K5 mirror would activate, raise and lower when almost any button was pressed.

    Fuji has a great camera in the X10 but it does have a very objectionable fault when it comes to handling specular highlights. I dare say that many early adopters of this camera would not have bought it if they had known of this issue.

    I can deal with it but there are those who cannot because of what and how they shoot.. their return period may have lapsed and Fuji has not yet found a way to handle this issue via firmware. I know they are working on it.. but.... If they cannot handle the issue with a firmware update what are those who bought the camera going to be able to do with a camera that does not handle these specular highlights properly? In some cases it really does look like a white hole in the photo. It's just not acceptable. What should they reasonably expect Fuji to offer? Allow the camera be returned for a full refund? A rebate?

    And please.. don't come at me with "Let the buyer beware."
    Jim Radcliffe
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    Senior Member Jim Radcliffe's Avatar
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    Jono.. to answer your question....

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post

    Incidentally Jim - what happens if you take a picture of a running river with the sun beyond . . . . do you get shoals of blobs all over it? . . . I suppose it would make a difference from the purple spots that many cameras manage
    Yes, you do... here is a sample I took on a sunny day at a small lake.. the issue is not as pronounced due to the lack of many ripples/waves but it is there. I can imagine this would be very objectionable for any photographer doing seascapes with specular highlights. I don't expect it to be perfect, Jono but I do expect it to be able to handle such highlights at least as well as other less expensive cameras. You may need to open this image full size in a new tab or browser window.

    All in all this shot is not all that objectionable when viewed at a reduced size but look at it full size and you'll see that it's just not what most of us would expect from a camera. Also, try to imagine someone who shoots musical instruments (trombones, trumpets, tubas, Etc) or automobiles with lots of chrome.. pardon the pun, but it is not a pretty picture on subjects of that nature.

    Jim Radcliffe
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    Re: What do camera makers owe us when they get it wrong?

    What do they owe us? A refund.

    And if they want our business again, they'll fix the problem next time and find a way to convince us they have done so. No more than that, certainly.

    It's a drag that manufacturers of goods in certain sectors see fit to beta test their products on early adopters, but it's how it works.

    Having said that I love when I see manufacturers getting transparent, poking into forums, releasing firmware updates, and generally playing a good-faith game. Makes me want to buy their stuff.

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    Re: What do camera makers owe us when they get it wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Radcliffe View Post
    Obviously you don't know my feelings about this camera. Nor do you know how much I shoot. I am quite happy with my X10. I use it a lot. It is probably the best small sensor compact camera I have owned. Visit the X10 section of my website.

    Forget the Fuji X10 and let's look at a hypothetical situation. The camera maker delivers a camera with a flaw that does not show up until sometime after the return period is over. The flaw is such that the camera becomes very difficult to use and photos under certain conditions just do not render properly. What should we expect from the camera maker if such a flaw is not something which can be fixed? That was my question.

    When Leica produced the M8 with the faulty IR issue they offered IR cut filters to all original owners of the M8.

    When Pentax produced the K5 and many had stains on the sensor the handled the issue. They also did the same for those (like myself) whose K5 mirror would activate, raise and lower when almost any button was pressed.

    Fuji has a great camera in the X10 but it does have a very objectionable fault when it comes to handling specular highlights. I dare say that many early adopters of this camera would not have bought it if they had known of this issue.

    I can deal with it but there are those who cannot because of what and how they shoot.. their return period may have lapsed and Fuji has not yet found a way to handle this issue via firmware. I know they are working on it.. but.... If they cannot handle the issue with a firmware update what are those who bought the camera going to be able to do with a camera that does not handle these specular highlights properly? In some cases it really does look like a white hole in the photo. It's just not acceptable. What should they reasonably expect Fuji to offer? Allow the camera be returned for a full refund? A rebate?

    And please.. don't come at me with "Let the buyer beware."
    If enough users find some particular idiosyncrasy, defect or engineering flaw a problem, a manufacturer/distributor I like to work with will issue a statement or fix, if one is possible. It is an attempt at improving customer satisfaction and the perception of their intended audience by acting in good faith.

    But they don't "owe" it to you as anything on a legal basis unless you and all the other customers initiate a class action suit and a court rules that the product was 'unfit for service' and awards compensations.

    I have not heard many people complaining about the X10 other than you.

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    Re: What do camera makers owe us when they get it wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post

    I have not heard many people complaining about the X10 other than you.
    Here was the initial info and Fuji's response. We haven't complained about it much over here but other forums are chock full of threads. This isn't something made up



    http://www.dpreview.com/articles/433...pact-cameras/3

    As regards still image quality perhaps the only serious fly in the X10 ointment at present is an issue which has been discussed fairly widely among X10 owners, and relates to specular highlights. Simply put, the X10 renders clipped point highlights as disproportionally large, hard-edges 'orbs', which once you've started to notice them, are impossible to ignore.

    We'll be looking into this issue, (you can read a statement from Fujifilm, and see more examples here) and of course we'll be running the X10 through our normal gamut of image quality tests as part of a full review of the camera in early 2012.


    AND:

    Company statement:

    http://www.dpreview.com/news/2011/12...mplansfirmware (Worth it to check the samples in the link.)


    Fujifilm has said it will attempt to address the problem of X10 images showing 'white discs' with a firmware update in response to customer concerns. The company statement comes in response to our enquiries about the problem, and confirms the phenomenon is caused by sensor 'blooming.' It claims the camera is working within prescribed tolerances and that the problem is not uncommon in other cameras but says that it plans updated firmware to 'lessen the effects' of the blooming. We have prepared a quick test of the issue (which we will cover in greater depth in the full review), showing the effects of Fujifilm's suggested ways of mitigating the issue.


    'Fujifilm engineers have examined a number of sample shots and have concluded that the camera is working within prescribed tolerances. The blooming issue is something not uncommon to many types of digital camera. It is possible to reduce the effects of blooming either by increasing the ISO or widening the dynamic range on the camera.

    However, after receiving a number of comments from users, we can understand their concern and plan a firmware upgrade to lessen the effects of blooming. We will announce in due course when the upgrade will be available.'








    .

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    Senior Member Lars Vinberg's Avatar
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    Re: What do camera makers owe us when they get it wrong?

    Laws vary by country.

    In many countries you can return a purchase for a full refund within a limited time - either by law or at the dealer's discretion.

    Many countries also have consumer protection in the form of a mandatory warranty against manufacturing defects. In this case that's a tricky one though - Fuji's carefully worded statement does not admit to any manufacturing defects.

    I'd say that this is a problem caused by design or engineering decisions rather than quality control. so the best course of action is to return the camera if possible, and to be vocal about the problems. This is exactly what people are doing.
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    Re: What do camera makers owe us when they get it wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    But they don't "owe" it to you as anything on a legal basis unless you and all the other customers initiate a class action suit and a court rules that the product was 'unfit for service' and awards compensations.

    I have not heard many people complaining about the X10 other than you.
    Oh for crying out loud, Godfrey, you know what I mean when I said "owe".. don't play word games and delve into semantics.. if that's what you enjoy then you should spend more time at DPReview.

    And as for your statement above about not hearing anyone complain about the issue but me... well, you must not spend much time in any forum but this one. Have you not heard that Fuji is investigating the problem?

    Read my lips.... I said I like the X10. I am keeping the X10 because I like it and enjoy using it. I am not keeping it so I can complain about it.. get real, sir.
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    Re: What do camera makers owe us when they get it wrong?

    I am not sure what they owe us but I do do know that we owe them scorn and a distinct lack of future business when they get it wrong and do not make it right but to be fair we do owe them time.
    Even better a careful evaluation of what we might buy before we put our money on the line is fair too.
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    Re: What do camera makers owe us when they get it wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Radcliffe View Post
    Oh for crying out loud, Godfrey, you know what I mean when I said "owe".. don't play word games and delve into semantics.. if that's what you enjoy then you should spend more time at DPReview.

    And as for your statement above about not hearing anyone complain about the issue but me... well, you must not spend much time in any forum but this one. Have you not heard that Fuji is investigating the problem?

    Read my lips.... I said I like the X10. I am keeping the X10 because I like it and enjoy using it. I am not keeping it so I can complain about it.. get real, sir.
    Lets not fight over only this.
    One reason I like image threads or pure tech so much better.
    Oh and Godfrey this is aimed at you too ;-)
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    Re: What do camera makers owe us when they get it wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Radcliffe View Post
    Oh for crying out loud, Godfrey, you know what I mean when I said "owe".. don't play word games and delve into semantics.. if that's what you enjoy then you should spend more time at DPReview.

    And as for your statement above about not hearing anyone complain about the issue but me... well, you must not spend much time in any forum but this one. Have you not heard that Fuji is investigating the problem?

    Read my lips.... I said I like the X10. I am keeping the X10 because I like it and enjoy using it. I am not keeping it so I can complain about it.. get real, sir.
    Word games and semantics? I'm just puzzled as hell as to what the point of your question is.

    Terry just posted the notices from Fuji which I hadn't seen. So it seems like they are doing just as I suggested they ought to ... trying to do their best to keep customers happy.

    I read about six-seven different photographic forums ... I hadn't seen any of this about the Fuji X10, sorry. Most of them talk about Photography, not equipment. But I'm glad Fuji is responding, which it seems you knew about already.

    I don't own a Fuji X10. As much as you seem to be enamored of it, Jim, it is not a camera that appeals to me at all. Therefore I don't keep up with the nattering and complaining on the DPR Fuji forum, where everyone seems to complain about everything. It's nice that you like it so much, and the photos you've made with it seem very nice. However, whether you like it or I don't is not terribly relevant to the question you posed:

    When a camera manufacturer produces a camera with an unacceptable, unrepairable, unfixable issue.. What do they owe us? What are our rights?
    That seems to be pretty cut and dried as questions go, pretty specific. That's what I'm responding to.

    So what was the point of your question, please?

    When I say someone "owes" me, I mean I expect a check Real Soon ... it's part of some sort of contractual obligation. When I ask what my "rights" are, well, I'm looking for a legal entitlement. Quoting Merriam-Webster with the appropriate definitions:

    owe verb [ with obj. ]
    have an obligation to pay or repay (something, esp. money) in return for something received: they have denied they owe money to the company
    rights noun
    a moral or legal entitlement to have or obtain something or to act in a certain way: [ with infinitive ] : she had every right to be angry | you're quite within your rights to ask for your money back | there is no right of appeal against the decision.
    (rights) the authority to perform, publish, film, or televise a particular work, event, etc.: they sold the paperback rights.
    I don't know what else you question is supposed to mean, ok?

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    Re: What do camera makers owe us when they get it wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    Lets not fight over only this.
    One reason I like image threads or pure tech so much better.
    Oh and Godfrey this is aimed at you too ;-)
    -bob
    Ah, sorry bob: I had Jim's reply on the screen, made dinner, and just responded. I didn't see your comments until the page refreshed.

    I'll unsubscribe from the thread.

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    Re: What do camera makers owe us when they get it wrong?

    Simple solution: Don't be an early adopter. Buy last year's model. This goes for anything from electric toothbrushes to fighter airplanes.

    I know, I know; taking decent photo with ancient, outdated technology isn't easy, and all the wizz-bang of the latest, greatest is sooo helpful in the process of getting the utmost from our creative potential. Still, I don't think it's fair to blame the camera manufacturers for bringing new technology to the market before it has been thoroughly tested. Few places do I read about "too little, too late" as often as on camera fora.
    We don't get wiser as we get older. It's a myth.
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    Re: What do camera makers owe us when they get it wrong?

    Anyone remember the 1DIII debacle?
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    Re: What do camera makers owe us when they get it wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Rubinstein View Post
    Anyone remember the 1DIII debacle?
    Or Leica's M8 IR debacle? A (then) $8000 camera with faulty IR filtering. Their solution was a free set of filters for the fronts of lenses!! You are lucky to get $3500 for a used one now. Camera companies weigh the cost of repair against lost future sales and come to a conclusion based on that. Fuji has dispensed with those customers who are disgruntled.
    Technically, under "lemon laws" you should be entitled to some kind of recourse to fix/remedy the problem.

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    Re: What do camera makers owe us when they get it wrong?

    If there are no perfect cameras I don't understand by what criteria Fuji owe anybody anything. The cup holder in my car isn't close enough, what does the car manufacturer owe me? Just don't buy another Fuji, vote with your wallet.

    This culture of needing to be compensated for life's irritations breeds some pathetic scenario's, and this is one. You have every right to be annoyed if you bought an X10, otherwise thats about it. But it seems mankinds resilience towards setbacks is being fast erroded after 40,000 years of evolution, flushed down the drain by threads such as this.

    Steve

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    Re: What do camera makers owe us when they get it wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by 250swb View Post
    If there are no perfect cameras I don't understand by what criteria Fuji owe anybody anything. The cup holder in my car isn't close enough, what does the car manufacturer owe me? Just don't buy another Fuji, vote with your wallet.

    This culture of needing to be compensated for life's irritations breeds some pathetic scenario's, and this is one. You have every right to be annoyed if you bought an X10, otherwise thats about it. But it seems mankinds resilience towards setbacks is being fast erroded after 40,000 years of evolution, flushed down the drain by threads such as this.
    Couldn't agree more, Steve. :-)

    BTW, I'm testing one of the Fuji X10 cameras at present. So far, it's proving to be quite an interesting camera. I haven't seen one of these specular flying saucers yet, but then I am always careful about any scene with a bunch of specular reflection in it.

    Have to say it does a darn good job on sensitivity, noise and detail for a camera with such a small sensor, and the lens demonstrates some pretty amazing flare control. Here's a link to a dynamic range torture test with the EXR DR priority mode, straight out of the camera:

    http://dl.dropbox.com/u/25268645/111231-1046.jpg

    No exposure compensation, no processing, nothing. That's quite stunning.

    It's biggest lack far as I'm concerned is the very small amount of focus zone control you can get with it. Is that another design flaw?

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    Re: What do camera makers owe us when they get it wrong?

    So the camera has some issues some times with specular highlights, so, every camera has issues and does somethings worse and somethings better than another camera. Did Fuji sell the camera has being the camera for capturing specular highlights, if they can do a firmware upgrade great if not then this not the camera for shoot shimmering highlights with.

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    Re: What do camera makers owe us when they get it wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    Couldn't agree more, Steve. :-)

    BTW, I'm testing one of the Fuji X10 cameras at present. So far, it's proving to be quite an interesting camera. I haven't seen one of these specular flying saucers yet, but then I am always careful about any scene with a bunch of specular reflection in it.

    Have to say it does a darn good job on sensitivity, noise and detail for a camera with such a small sensor, and the lens demonstrates some pretty amazing flare control. Here's a link to a dynamic range torture test with the EXR DR priority mode, straight out of the camera:

    http://dl.dropbox.com/u/25268645/111231-1046.jpg

    No exposure compensation, no processing, nothing. That's quite stunning.

    It's biggest lack far as I'm concerned is the very small amount of focus zone control you can get with it. Is that another design flaw?
    If you set the camera Medium sized files and ISO 100 and DR400 you can shoot those files in RAW.

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    Re: What do camera makers owe us when they get it wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Terry View Post
    If you set the camera Medium sized files and ISO 100 and DR400 you can shoot those files in RAW.
    Thanks, good to know. I haven't studied all the options yet, just starting to explore it.

    I still find the GXR form factor and controls significantly better than the Fuji X10/X100. The Fuji layout some how just seems somehow cramped and fiddly by comparison. The sensor performs well ... been mucking through a few test shots from today's walk and they're quite nice. I'd considered trying a Ricoh S10 24-72 camera unit, but the Fuji's manual zoom and optical viewfinder coupled with their sensor piqued my curiosity.

    Processing the raw files in Lightroom v3.6 demonstrates quite a lot of sensitivity to the luminance noise reduction and sharpening controls: just a hair too much and you get some "clumped" artifacts appearing. However with a judicious hand you can get very smooth results even at high ISO (I've been playing with up to ISO 800 so far, quite high for a 2/3" sensor).

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    Re: What do camera makers owe us when they get it wrong?

    And by the way you shoot this way in regular PASM not in the EXR mode on the dial. You will be hard pressed to figure that out from the manual. It isn't really there. The RAW file will still be the same size as a regular 12mp file but will not be the same pixel dimensions because of the combination.

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    Re: What do camera makers owe us when they get it wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    Couldn't agree more, Steve. :-)

    BTW, I'm testing one of the Fuji X10 cameras at present. So far, it's proving to be quite an interesting camera. I haven't seen one of these specular flying saucers yet, but then I am always careful about any scene with a bunch of specular reflection in it.

    Have to say it does a darn good job on sensitivity, noise and detail for a camera with such a small sensor, and the lens demonstrates some pretty amazing flare control. Here's a link to a dynamic range torture test with the EXR DR priority mode, straight out of the camera:

    http://dl.dropbox.com/u/25268645/111231-1046.jpg

    No exposure compensation, no processing, nothing. That's quite stunning.

    It's biggest lack far as I'm concerned is the very small amount of focus zone control you can get with it. Is that another design flaw?
    I bought the X10 (after reading the various posts regarding the "blobs"). I love the form-factor, menus are acceptable, love the dial layout on the top deck, etc. I returned the camera after my tests because I was disappointed by capture detail. I'm hoping it was a weak copy (poor lens, etc.) because I've seen some very nice files from the X10 (for a small-sensor camera). My copy was rather weak on the wide end, though acceptable at the long end. The smeared look and lack of detail was a disappointment for how I intend to use it.

    The "blob" specular highlights issue is real, but not a real concern to me (i.e. not a deal breaker) though it isn't a great feature. Blown highlights suck anyway, and my style of shooting isn't prone to such.

    I plan to reorder the X10, hoping to get one from a new batch after waiting a bit. I'm also very interested in what the LX1 turns out to be, and will give it a go, when and if it becomes available.

    Keep us posted on your observations, Godfrey.

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    Re: What do camera makers owe us when they get it wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Radcliffe View Post
    You mean like what Adobe is trying to do now? No thanks. I will find another provider of software and gear.

    just a minor point.....but you actually don't own any software you have bought in the last 25 years at least... you only have bought a licence to use it.. if you actually read the small print of that agreement that you always click through and agree before installing you will find that basically they promise you nothing...just the right to install it as it is


    K

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    Re: What do camera makers owe us when they get it wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dale Allyn View Post
    I bought the X10 (after reading the various posts regarding the "blobs"). I love the form-factor, menus are acceptable, love the dial layout on the top deck, etc. I returned the camera after my tests because I was disappointed by capture detail. I'm hoping it was a weak copy (poor lens, etc.) because I've seen some very nice files from the X10 (for a small-sensor camera). My copy was rather weak on the wide end, though acceptable at the long end. The smeared look and lack of detail was a disappointment for how I intend to use it.

    The "blob" specular highlights issue is real, but not a real concern to me (i.e. not a deal breaker) though it isn't a great feature. Blown highlights suck anyway, and my style of shooting isn't prone to such.

    I plan to reorder the X10, hoping to get one from a new batch after waiting a bit. I'm also very interested in what the LX1 turns out to be, and will give it a go, when and if it becomes available.

    Keep us posted on your observations, Godfrey.
    Not sure I'm going to keep it yet either. It is nice and returns nice results, but I find it a bit clumsy in use.

    Some results from today..

    http://gallery.me.com/godders?view=g...lack&view=grid

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    Re: What do camera makers owe us when they get it wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    Not sure I'm going to keep it yet either. It is nice and returns nice results, but I find it a bit clumsy in use.

    Some results from today..

    http://gallery.me.com/godders?view=g...lack&view=grid
    Godfrey,

    Thanks for sharing your images from today. I found the handling pretty good for my hands (for a compact). I had the hood and found that cradling the X10 in the left hand, palm up, etc., works very nicely for me for such a compact camera. My intended use is/was to replace such tools as the Canon S95, which I find way too small and touchy to mis-handling (regarding buttons being activated accidentally, etc.). Plus, I'm a viewfinder guy. I HATE using viewfinder-less cameras like the S95, although I do tend to shoot using the LCD from time to time.

    I'd spend another $400 or $500 for an X10-like camera with better image quality, but if I can get one with a better lens delivering good results from 7.1 - 28.4mm I'll keep it. I like what Fuji is offering, although there is room for refinement IMO.

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    Re: What do camera makers owe us when they get it wrong?

    At the risk of sounding biased, the GXR's handling is simply the best of any small camera I've used, and with the EVF fitted becomes an excellent eye level camera

    The primary reason for my interest in the x10 is the fast short zoom coupled with a decent optical VF and the unusual sensor technology. It might work out for me.

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    Re: What do camera makers owe us when they get it wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    The primary reason for my interest in the x10 is the fast short zoom coupled with a decent optical VF and the unusual sensor technology. It might work out for me.
    Godfrey, this is similar to my thoughts, although I do like the form-factor and the retro controls – not as a style (fashion) thing, but as an interface preference.
    Last edited by Dale Allyn; 31st December 2011 at 20:32.

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    Re: What do camera makers owe us when they get it wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Radcliffe View Post
    Over in DPReview the Fuji forum has been somewhat of a hornet's nest for the last three weeks due to the way the Fuji X10 handles specular highlights, which in a few words is... not very well.

    Before I go further with this let me state that this issue has not ruined a single one of my photos and that I like and enjoy using the X10. I do plan on keeping it. It does so many things well. The problem is that, to some, the speuclar highlight issue is a real problem. Photographing musical instruments, cars, boats, seascapes, architecture, anything which might catch direct sunlight on a highly reflective surface will present orbs or blobs of light rather than a more acceptable star burst effect in the photo.

    Here is a simple example of how the X10 renders these highlights. Not quite what we are used to getting.. and I have seen worse examples than this one. You can imagine how this would play out for those who do seascapes on bright, sunny days as well as those who do night photography in cities.



    Fuji is aware of the issue and is working on a firmware tweak. I hesitate to use the word "fix" because I am not sure it can be fixed as this issue appears to be a characteristic of the sensor used in the X10.

    So my question is this:

    When a camera manufacturer produces a camera with an unacceptable, unrepairable, unfixable issue.. What do they owe us? What are our rights? There are Lemmon Laws for cars but not sure if there is equal protection for consumers where cameras are concerned. I'm not suggesting the X10 is a lemmon by any means but there are those who will based on the issue with specular highlights.


    [1]Should we be able to return the camera for a total refund if no fix is available?

    [2]Will there be a limit on the amount of time in which we are free to return a flawed camera: two weeks, three weeks, months?

    [3]Should Fuji offer a cash rebate for those who bought the camera but wish to keep it rather than ask for a refund if there is no fix?

    I pose the question only because I know many will return the camera. Many, like myself, will keep the camera. So for those who feel the camera is flawed and unfixable, what will be their recourse? If Fuji's work/fix on this issue is still not acceptable where does that leave an unhappy consumer who may have had the camera longer than a stores specified return period?
    I think this type of thing has become more prevalent in the rush to market new products at an ever increasing intervals ... basically products are being beta tested by consumers.

    The camera companies have been capitalizing on consumer's growing habit of changing their cameras like changing their underwear ... especially cameras that don't involve major systems investments. Here today, gone today. Some novelty grabs the consumer's interest, it enjoys a rush of popularity by earlier adopters, some flaw is discovered, but by then the initial R&D is paid for and some profit realized, the company fixes what they can on said product to recover as much good will as they can, then rushes off to the next NEW thing to repeat the cycle.

    I'm not suggesting this is malicious and deliberate methodology, however, I find it hard to believe that a camera/lens engineer wouldn't catch flaws of this type with any degree of real-world application. If they are, then someone else in the product chain is over-riding them ... probably marketing types.

    We are as much to blame as the camera makers, Saying that "no camera can do everything well", just lets them off the hook. I mean, come on! ... some things are fundamental. After decades of making SLRs, the Canon 5D's mirror falls out? The 1DMK-III "sports" camera can't focus on CAF? The M8 can't photograph synthetic fabrics? ... and so on ... really? I mean ... REALLY?

    Some may well feel that this specific flaw is no big deal? Again ... really? Specular highlights are everywhere, and are already a challenge with digital capture. Why on earth would you accept worst performance?

    The only way to stop this behavior is to immediately return the device ... doesn't matter if the company or the retailer takes the hit ... it'll send a message.

    I'll bet a dollar to a donut that will NOT happen ... we've become sheep that are experts in justifying mistakes of others by putting up with it ... so why should the companies change their money making ways of doing things?

    -Marc

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    Re: What do camera makers owe us when they get it wrong?

    From your mouth to peoples ears Marc..
    I am not a painter, nor an artist. Therefore I can see straight, and that may be my undoing. - Alfred Stieglitz

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    Re: What do camera makers owe us when they get it wrong?

    I think it's entirely possible that someone, somewhere, will find an artistic use for those "unique" specular highlights, turning a flaw into an aesthetic approach.

    I can't speak for what the camera companies might owe the early adopters of new cameras, but I certainly feel as if I owe them a debt. They save me so much money and aggravation.

    Tim

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    Re: What do camera makers owe us when they get it wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    I think this type of thing has become more prevalent in the rush to market new products at an ever increasing intervals ... basically products are being beta tested by consumers.

    The camera companies have been capitalizing on consumer's growing habit of changing their cameras like changing their underwear ... especially cameras that don't involve major systems investments. Here today, gone today. Some novelty grabs the consumer's interest, it enjoys a rush of popularity by earlier adopters, some flaw is discovered, but by then the initial R&D is paid for and some profit realized, the company fixes what they can on said product to recover as much good will as they can, then rushes off to the next NEW thing to repeat the cycle.

    I'm not suggesting this is malicious and deliberate methodology, however, I find it hard to believe that a camera/lens engineer wouldn't catch flaws of this type with any degree of real-world application. If they are, then someone else in the product chain is over-riding them ... probably marketing types.

    We are as much to blame as the camera makers, Saying that "no camera can do everything well", just lets them off the hook. I mean, come on! ... some things are fundamental. After decades of making SLRs, the Canon 5D's mirror falls out? The 1DMK-III "sports" camera can't focus on CAF? The M8 can't photograph synthetic fabrics? ... and so on ... really? I mean ... REALLY?

    Some may well feel that this specific flaw is no big deal? Again ... really? Specular highlights are everywhere, and are already a challenge with digital capture. Why on earth would you accept worst performance?

    The only way to stop this behavior is to immediately return the device ... doesn't matter if the company or the retailer takes the hit ... it'll send a message.

    I'll bet a dollar to a donut that will NOT happen ... we've become sheep that are experts in justifying mistakes of others by putting up with it ... so why should the companies change their money making ways of doing things?

    -Marc
    Wonderfully said Marc. Let me add that this sheepish behavior becomes the more embarrassing to observe when you add some fanboy-sm to it as it happens with brands like Leica, for instance; both after the M8 & after the M9 release, reading (let alone participating in) the LUF and similar fanboy fora became really painful Seeing people condoning M8's "features" like the need for added IR filters for shooting fabrics, all the shutter problems etc and trying to justify them, as well as the cracked sensor on the M9's first batch (I mean, REALLY!!), etc etc one wonders where we got to as users; as you said, we as customers (a general we, of course, present company excluded ) are as much to blame as the manufacturers for the sorry state of affairs we got to.

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    Re: What do camera makers owe us when they get it wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dale Allyn View Post
    Godfrey, this is similar to my thoughts, although I do like the form-factor and the retro controls – not as a style (fashion) thing, but as an interface preference.
    Hmm.

    I find the EV Compensation control particularly poorly devised. It's too high and too far to the right on the body, and too heavily clicked stopped, for easy and precise use. That's the control I most want instant access and quick, easy, precise operation of when I'm actually making a shot looking at the LCD or through the viewfinder. I find it fussy to use, it requires I look down at the camera and look what I'm setting carefully, change my hand position on the body, etc. I wish they'd put it on the primary control wheel and used the top mounted wheel for aperture or shutter time setting instead. I usually set those before I'm looking at the LCD or have the camera to my eye.

    That's one example of where I find this design clumsy. Another simple one: why do the menus require I press a 'back' button to commit and exit menu mode, rather than the central 'ok' button? Another, slower, 'have to stop and think a moment' design flaw.

    Yeah, our minds and fingers adapt. I've not used the camera enough yet. That's why now is when I like to write down what I find so I can compare later and see whether they really are much of a concern later on, if I keep it. :-)

    And others may like these design flaws too. Or may not experience them due to how they use the camera. Is the manufacturer beta testing with them because they're looking for the Godfreys in the marketplace? ];-)

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    Re: What do camera makers owe us when they get it wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by vieri View Post
    Wonderfully said Marc. Let me add that this sheepish behavior becomes the more embarrassing to observe when you add some fanboy-sm to it as it happens with brands like Leica, for instance; both after the M8 & after the M9 release, reading (let alone participating in) the LUF and similar fanboy fora became really painful Seeing people condoning M8's "features" like the need for added IR filters for shooting fabrics, all the shutter problems etc and trying to justify them, as well as the cracked sensor on the M9's first batch (I mean, REALLY!!), etc etc one wonders where we got to as users; as you said, we as customers (a general we, of course, present company excluded ) are as much to blame as the manufacturers for the sorry state of affairs we got to.
    Yeah, as an early adopter, I was one of the initial whistle blowers on the M8. The first wedding I shot, all the Tuxes were magenta ... I thought I had been transported back to the 1970s . All the weasel worded denials, blame games, and finger pointing afterwards was a tragic thing to witness.

    Just like Fuji's weaseled response: "... is working with-in prescribed tolerances." Really? Who's prescribed tolerances would that be?

    I'm not proposing that cameras will not have QC production issues, that's always been part of buying anything ... it's the undiscovered design or engineering issues that seem to be getting more common, and "workarounds" or passive acceptance seem to the acceptable by-product.

    It may be just the way it is in today's dog-eat-dog camera marketing world ... racing headlong to serve super impatient, gimme it now tech junkies I think they actually count on slippage ... the concept where a percentage of buyers will let the fault ride, so the fix isn't as expensive as getting it right in the first place.

    I just love the notion of some company people biting their finger nails as they launch a new camera ... worried whether some fault will rear its head as soon as it goes to market ... poor things. No sympathy or cry-baby hankie from me anymore.

    Maybe they should test the crap out of a production model BEFORE rushing to market rather than letting us do that for them?

    -Marc

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    Re: What do camera makers owe us when they get it wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    Hmm.

    I find the EV Compensation control particularly poorly devised. It's too high and too far to the right on the body, and too heavily clicked stopped, for easy and precise use. That's the control I most want instant access and quick, easy, precise operation of when I'm actually making a shot looking at the LCD or through the viewfinder. I find it fussy to use, it requires I look down at the camera and look what I'm setting carefully, change my hand position on the body, etc. I wish they'd put it on the primary control wheel and used the top mounted wheel for aperture or shutter time setting instead. I usually set those before I'm looking at the LCD or have the camera to my eye.

    That's one example of where I find this design clumsy. Another simple one: why do the menus require I press a 'back' button to commit and exit menu mode, rather than the central 'ok' button? Another, slower, 'have to stop and think a moment' design flaw.

    Yeah, our minds and fingers adapt. I've not used the camera enough yet. That's why now is when I like to write down what I find so I can compare later and see whether they really are much of a concern later on, if I keep it. :-)

    And others may like these design flaws too. Or may not experience them due to how they use the camera. Is the manufacturer beta testing with them because they're looking for the Godfreys in the marketplace? ];-)
    Godfrey: these are design dilemmas which affect every product and service. A good UX (User Experience) should always be the precise goal, but each user has slightly different needs, preferences or use-cases. The trick is in the balance. I like the hard clicks of the dial on top and wish the other dials exhibited similar detents. I hate the larger round dial on the back (and on all cameras) because it moves too easily. You see I use this camera (and similar compacts) primarily hiking in the Sierras or other applications where it comes in and out of storage. There's nothing worse to me than raise the camera to my eye and learn that all the settings have changed (see the Canon 5D after carrying on shoulder for a short while).

    In a perfect world (to me) the X10 would have EV comp in the viewfinder. Like you, I use it a lot. Aside from aperture setting I would say it's my most used function on such a camera.

    In the case of the X10, dial/button placement is constrained by body size and layout success is materially affected by users' hand sizes.

    As for the menus: yeah, there's some weird stuff there, but I'm okay with the quirks for my uses. However, if I were designing the UI it would not be this model and I suspect that you and I would have similar requirements there. Fuji's menu designs choices (and overall UI) are a bit of a mystery to me, but unlike some projects (like building web interfaces and such) I'm not emotionally invested in the Fuji line. I'm just looking for a great compact and will adapt somewhat. How much I'm willing to adapt has its limits though.
    Last edited by Dale Allyn; 1st January 2012 at 10:50. Reason: mangled sentence, typos, etc.

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    Re: What do camera makers owe us when they get it wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    Hmm.

    I find the EV Compensation control particularly poorly devised. It's too high and too far to the right on the body, and too heavily clicked stopped, for easy and precise use. That's the control I most want instant access and quick, easy, precise operation of when I'm actually making a shot looking at the LCD or through the viewfinder. I find it fussy to use, it requires I look down at the camera and look what I'm setting carefully, change my hand position on the body, etc. I wish they'd put it on the primary control wheel and used the top mounted wheel for aperture or shutter time setting instead. I usually set those before I'm looking at the LCD or have the camera to my eye.

    That's one example of where I find this design clumsy. Another simple one: why do the menus require I press a 'back' button to commit and exit menu mode, rather than the central 'ok' button? Another, slower, 'have to stop and think a moment' design flaw.

    Yeah, our minds and fingers adapt. I've not used the camera enough yet. That's why now is when I like to write down what I find so I can compare later and see whether they really are much of a concern later on, if I keep it. :-)

    And others may like these design flaws too. Or may not experience them due to how they use the camera. Is the manufacturer beta testing with them because they're looking for the Godfreys in the marketplace? ];-)
    I like the location and the heavy detent of the wheel that way it does not change by mistake, the control wheel moves too easily that is why i also like that Fuji let's me lock it.
    One my GXR I have had to turn off the zoom adj lever because of how many times it would change the exp compensation setting, Each of us hold and use a camera differently some we like some we don't. For me personally this specular highlight issue has made to seem like a much bigger problem than it is, but that is just me I guess,

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    Re: What do camera makers owe us when they get it wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    ...
    Maybe they should test the crap out of a production model BEFORE rushing to market rather than letting us do that for them?
    Were you willing to wait another two years for the M8 to be delivered?
    Or another two months for a Fuji X100?

    Half the people yammering about these flaws on the internet would have bought something else if they had to wait another day for the latest and greatest to appear. And then they'd bad mouth Leica or Fuji for their "slow, sluggish delivery" too. There's no winning this game.

    I believe all the companies are trying to deliver the best products they can. And, just like human beings, they make mistakes, they get in a rush, they forget to test particular things, etc etc etc. Because after all, all of these companies are nothing more than fallible human beings making stuff. And they try to cover their collective asses with excuses and denials when a bad mistake gets out while they scramble to come up with a solution that won't piss everyone off.

    Sorta like politicians, eh? ;-)

    No manufactured thing has ever been perfect, and none ever will be. Most work pretty darn well, and all have some wart or briar patch you have to learn to live with and avoid. That's life.

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    Re: What do camera makers owe us when they get it wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dale Allyn View Post
    ... The trick is in the balance. ...

    ... I'm just looking for a great compact and will adapt somewhat. How much I'm willing to adapt has its limits though.
    Yup ...

    ... Unfortunately, you don't have many options other than to wait or to tolerate. Or do without. Regards the X10, because I have the Ricoh GXR, doing without wouldn't be too much of a hardship. At least with the GXR, in the situation you describe, the controls would not have been moved since you last had the camera out, if you powered it off, because the buttons that control EV Compensation won't change anything with the power off. And the Mode Selector locks in position too.

    While the EV Comp dial works for you, it's the one of the few things about the X10 that I really find annoying as heck. I can't just lightly click-click to where I want it to go, I get it wrong unless I look and move it deliberately.

    I'll adapt, or the camera won't stick around very long. It's not a big deal ... it's just another camera.

    :-)

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    Re: What do camera makers owe us when they get it wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    And others may like these design flaws too.
    And others like me would consider the way you want it flawed. I think design decision would have been a bit nicer way to put it.

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    Re: What do camera makers owe us when they get it wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    I'm not proposing that cameras will not have QC production issues, that's always been part of buying anything ... it's the undiscovered design or engineering issues that seem to be getting more common, and "workarounds" or passive acceptance seem to the acceptable by-product.

    It may be just the way it is in today's dog-eat-dog camera marketing world ... racing headlong to serve super impatient, gimme it now tech junkies I think they actually count on slippage ... the concept where a percentage of buyers will let the fault ride, so the fix isn't as expensive as getting it right in the first place.

    I just love the notion of some company people biting their finger nails as they launch a new camera ... worried whether some fault will rear its head as soon as it goes to market ... poor things. No sympathy or cry-baby hankie from me anymore.

    Maybe they should test the crap out of a production model BEFORE rushing to market rather than letting us do that for them?

    -Marc
    Hmmm - the reason that they can't test the crap out of it BEFORE rushing to market (at least in the case of the M8) is that they couldn't afford to - if you remember rightly they were on the brink of catastrophe. I've no idea who knew what, but I find the whole concept of 'whistle blowers' rather distasteful. The cracked sensor was definitely a QA production issue - hard to have anticipated.. . I guess that just saying this makes me an apologist!

    I don't believe things are worse than they were - in fact, I'm pretty sure they're much better - it's just that a few years ago problems like this really didn't come to light for ages - and even when they did, it was only to a select few. The internet has made these kind of issues immediately obvious to everyone.

    As consumers we DEMAND perfection at a sensible price - the competition is extreme, and I think we often get better than we deserve - which, generally speaking is pretty good.

    I find all this zipless and brutal criticism pretty distasteful myself. Nobody wants to release a faulty product, and one assumes that even if they do it on purpose in the final analysis, it's because they have no choice.

    It's quite simple really:

    If you don't want to be a beta tester - don't buy early

    Obviously, I'm really pleased that this information comes to light - the internet is a wonderful vehicle for it. But I'm afraid I live in a glass house, and throwing stones is against my principles. I'm amazed at everyone who seems to find it so easy.

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: What do camera makers owe us when they get it wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Terry View Post
    And others like me would consider the way you want it flawed. I think design decision would have been a bit nicer way to put it.
    That was supposed to be a tongue in cheek comment, Terry. Do I really have to be so PC in this banter amongst friends?

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