new Fuji X Pro1 camera

[monza]

Re: new Fuji X Pro1 camera (formerly called "new camera")

Okay, seems you haven't been reading what people have been writing regarding technical and IQ comparisons to Leica ... but if you say so.

Yes, I've read the thread; I was referring specifically to my comments which have not been about technical comparisons to Leica.

:OT:The information that the Leica stores are wholly Corporate owned is not correct or misunderstood ... but again if you say so. I have the full marketing presentation that, as a consultant in marketing and advertising (my profession), I'm evaluating for an authorized Leica dealer as a possible investment. It is a franchise, not wholly owned company stores.:OT:

Excellent. My point, AGAIN: Leica has to get their production house in order *regardless.* I've been involved in a similar capacity with two dealers who rejected such an investment specifically because they have no guarantee that Leica will reward them with sufficient shipments to pay off such an investment.

Nice camera, but I agree with Jono ... it's not a NEX7 nor a Leica M in terms of either EVF or OVF ... okay for some, not with others. It's a crop frame with lens factors ... okay for some, not with others. It apparently has neither stellar AF nor breakthrough manual focus (like focus peaking) ... okay for some, not for others. IQ as demonstrated so far is okay, but not earth shattering or unobtainable by an array of other choices including some smaller DSLRs with more resolution at less cost ... okay for some, not with others.

It will be interesting to see technical comparisons with those cheaper crop DSLRs. Considering that early indications show that the sensor is, in many tests, at least the equal of, and outperforms full frame cameras costing more; some, much more.

The point of threads like these isn't a sales platform for marketers, it's for photographers to thrash out all of the aspects that determine ... "Okay for some, not for me".

Yes. That is exactly what has been happening in this thread, with a bit of a diversion.

In your opinion, not everyone's. Personally, I think you have crossed swords with the wrong photographer

Crossed swords in what way? I complimented his work. Are you saying that only one camera can produce those types of images? Of so, which one would that be?

In my experience, talent is irrespective of gear. I see absolutely nothing in that first image that couldn't be done with any number of cameras, and indeed the second as well...but this takes nothing away from his talent, does it?

Nothing shown so far using the Fuji even approaches this work ... IMO.

Yes! In your opinion. Not everyone's. But we aren't really comparing photographers in this thread. Absolutely, Fuji should send him a camera and see what he can do with it!

 

[Vivek]

Re: new Fuji X Pro1 camera (formerly called "new camera")

Well, as a result of this "diversion", we learn, once again, that Leica stuff is boutique. :sleep006:

 

[monza]

Re: new Fuji X Pro1 camera (formerly called "new camera")

More fodder. Feel free to ignore as usual.


Fujifilm X-Pro1 Mirrorless Camera Review


Fujifilm X-Pro1 Verdict
The Fujifilm X-Pro1 is a fantastic camera, in every area it produces the results expected from a premium quality camera. The image quality is stunning, with excellent, and I really mean excellent pixel level detail, with excellent colour reproduction, great dynamic range, excellent high ISO noise results and excellent JPEG output straight from the camera. The lenses are excellent with great handling from the all-metal construction and the bright apertures help render beautiful bokeh. Handling of the camera is very good and although the camera is larger than most other mirrorless cameras, the solid metal construction, premium feel and numerous external controls with the hybrid optical / electronic viewfinder make it well worth the added weight.

 

[fotografz]

Re: new Fuji X Pro1 camera (formerly called "new camera")

More fodder. Feel free to ignore as usual.


Fujifilm X-Pro1 Mirrorless Camera Review


Fujifilm X-Pro1 Verdict
The Fujifilm X-Pro1 is a fantastic camera, in every area it produces the results expected from a premium quality camera. The image quality is stunning, with excellent, and I really mean excellent pixel level detail, with excellent colour reproduction, great dynamic range, excellent high ISO noise results and excellent JPEG output straight from the camera. The lenses are excellent with great handling from the all-metal construction and the bright apertures help render beautiful bokeh. Handling of the camera is very good and although the camera is larger than most other mirrorless cameras, the solid metal construction, premium feel and numerous external controls with the hybrid optical / electronic viewfinder make it well worth the added weight.

Thanks for the link.

Sure a lot of "excellent" comments in that review.

Sorry, but hard to believe that the sample photos meet the criteria of "excellent" in almost anyone's book ...

The mug shot of the girl is a terrible photo, and her hair is flat and mushy ... the same mug shot from the NEX 7 looks better.

The pano shot of the estate looks like it was shot with a cell phone.

The macro shot of the watch is ... uh, to be kind ... not so good.

Not one shot in that review shows a sense of pictorial depth or richness.

High ISO static shots of the Xrite seem to promise decent performance in that area.

Surely this camera is capable of better images than this review seems to suggest?

Get this camera into a damned good photographer's hands ... quick!

I volunteer Jono (only because Irakly's in Moscow working right now) ... :ROTFL:

-Marc

 

[monza]

Re: new Fuji X Pro1 camera (formerly called "new camera")

Luckily the review is not regarding the artistic quality of images

Jono??

 

[jonoslack]

Re: new Fuji X Pro1 camera (formerly called "new camera")

Well . . I'm very flattered - and I don't see much wrong with the IQ myself, although I have to admit I find it really difficult to glean much from this sort of web image.

However, I do have a problem with the camera . . at least, of course, I haven't tried the X Pro1 . . but I had a real problem with the X100, and the principle is clearly the same.

My personal feeling is that the camera is very much to the M9 what the Contax G2 was to the M7. . . more innovative, advanced, forward thinking, excellent and sensibly priced lenses, beautifully made (I was going to say attractive, but I still have a problem with that slopey bit) . . . but seriously missing the point. For me the point is . . . well, the points are:

the rangefinder patch (i.e believable manual focusing)
seeing outside the image
having a fixed view
really really knowing what's in focus

Perhaps it's just me - certainly, if you're going to shoot street, then, on the whole the camera is likely to focus on the person you're pointing it at, and with face detection it'll do even better. But I often want focus on a small point with something contrasty behind it, and my experience of CDAF focusing is that it's really bad at that - and that the focus point is much larger than it appears. The Contax G2 AF was pretty bad as well . . . and you never really knew what it was focusing on . . the situation doesn't seem to me to have changed that much.

I think the point I'm trying to make is that the Fuji is so clever and all, the lenses seem lovely and sensibly priced, but my impression is that unless you are willing to put up with imprecise AF (even if it's terribly accurate) and focus assist for MF, then the camera may have better IQ than an M9, but that the perfect simplicity of the M has been compromised, without offering much in return. (maybe if they'd offered focus peaking it might be different)

Bottom line (for me) is that if you want AF you want an SLR - probably a Nikon. If you want MF you want to be able to really nail it (without zooming in and out). If you want to shoot M lenses, then you want to shoot them on a full frame camera, and preferably on a Leica.

. . . and Marc - I wonder how much time Irakly would be willing to spend in the camera, even if he wasn't in Moscow!

all the best

 

[fotografz]

Re: new Fuji X Pro1 camera (formerly called "new camera")

Luckily the review is not regarding the artistic quality of images

Jono??

I understand Robert, yet how does one evaluate the IQ of any tool if most of the samples are so poorly executed as to obscure any latent qualities one uses as a guide? Poor execution isn't the same as being devoid of artistic merit. We all shoot rote stuff when goofing around testing a new camera, but it doesn't excuse us from exercising some level of "craftsmanship" so we can use them to discuss some image merits we find.

Anyone can make a badly executed photo of an ordinary subject with any camera at any cost, in which case it isn't the subject that is at issue, and it becomes equally difficult or impossible to glean anything of value from the review.

Just click on the hi-res version of that pano shot of the estate ... to me what came to mind was why would anyone include a shot that is not exposed correctly and isn't sharp, then tout how excellent a camera is? The credibility comes into question in those circumstances.

http://www.ephotozine.com/articles/.../highres-fujifilmxpro1panorama_1330963278.jpg

What do we expect to learn from the high res shot of the dog? Either the reviewer chose to not focus on the eyes, or the camera did ... we don't know. The exposure is poor and the front of the dog is blown ... focus fall off is quite abrupt and goes mushy pretty quickly ... not image characteristics I would personally label as "excellent".

http://www.magezinepublishing.com/e...ghres/fujifilmxpro1petportrait_1330963312.jpg

Etc., etc. etc.

While it is not my job or responsibility to publicly take any review to task, I will speak my thoughts when hyperbolic adjectives are bandied about that are not born out by the accompanying images.


I'm not speaking in general, but about this specific review that was used as some sort of proof of excellence. This doesn't necessarily mean the camera is bad, it just means it is hard to tell what it is without some standards of craftsmanship being exercised.

-Marc

 

[fotografz]

Re: new Fuji X Pro1 camera (formerly called "new camera")

Well . . I'm very flattered - and I don't see much wrong with the IQ myself, although I have to admit I find it really difficult to glean much from this sort of web image.

However, I do have a problem with the camera . . at least, of course, I haven't tried the X Pro1 . . but I had a real problem with the X100, and the principle is clearly the same.

My personal feeling is that the camera is very much to the M9 what the Contax G2 was to the M7. . . more innovative, advanced, forward thinking, excellent and sensibly priced lenses, beautifully made (I was going to say attractive, but I still have a problem with that slopey bit) . . . but seriously missing the point. For me the point is . . . well, the points are:

the rangefinder patch (i.e believable manual focusing)
seeing outside the image
having a fixed view
really really knowing what's in focus

Perhaps it's just me - certainly, if you're going to shoot street, then, on the whole the camera is likely to focus on the person you're pointing it at, and with face detection it'll do even better. But I often want focus on a small point with something contrasty behind it, and my experience of CDAF focusing is that it's really bad at that - and that the focus point is much larger than it appears. The Contax G2 AF was pretty bad as well . . . and you never really knew what it was focusing on . . the situation doesn't seem to me to have changed that much.

I think the point I'm trying to make is that the Fuji is so clever and all, the lenses seem lovely and sensibly priced, but my impression is that unless you are willing to put up with imprecise AF (even if it's terribly accurate) and focus assist for MF, then the camera may have better IQ than an M9, but that the perfect simplicity of the M has been compromised, without offering much in return. (maybe if they'd offered focus peaking it might be different)

Bottom line (for me) is that if you want AF you want an SLR - probably a Nikon. If you want MF you want to be able to really nail it (without zooming in and out). If you want to shoot M lenses, then you want to shoot them on a full frame camera, and preferably on a Leica.

. . . and Marc - I wonder how much time Irakly would be willing to spend in the camera, even if he wasn't in Moscow!

all the best

Here's a shocker ... after all my grousing, I may go ahead and get this camera anyway ... not as a replacement for my main M9P rangefinder camera, but as a back-up to it. I sold both my M9s, and it'll be a while before the M10 is out and available to evaluate verses the M9P (which I'll keep in any case anyway). My wife needs a camera, and if I don't like the Fuji, she may for all the reasons I don't

In the meantime I'd like to see how it does in low light ... at which point, the whole focus issue you discuss will become the primary evaluative point ... if it is similar to the Contax G2, it won't matter how well it handles higher ISO IQ.

The competition for this interim camera is unclear to me right now. The ideal back-up to a M9 is of course another M9, but right now with the M10 on the horizon I'm hedging my bets while waiting ... the best back-up alternative would be something to use the M lenses on, Like the NEX ... but I like the form factor of this camera better, even if I'm not in love with the design of it.

Then there is the option of doing nothing in the interim.

All the best,

-Marc

BTW, Irakly puts his pants on one leg at a time, and if I got this camera I guarantee he'll grab it and disappear for a couple of days and then give his typical blunt and candid, but always fair, opinion one way or another.

 

[cam]

Re: new Fuji X Pro1 camera (formerly called "new camera")

Here's a shocker ... after all my grousing, I may go ahead and get this camera anyway ... not as a replacement for my main M9P rangefinder camera, but as a back-up to it. I sold both my M9s, and it'll be a while before the M10 is out and available to evaluate verses the M9P (which I'll keep in any case anyway). My wife needs a camera, and if I don't like the Fuji, she may for all the reasons I don't

In the meantime I'd like to see how it does in low light ... at which point, the whole focus issue you discuss will become the primary evaluative point ... if it is similar to the Contax G2, it won't matter how well it handles higher ISO IQ.

The competition for this interim camera is unclear to me right now. The ideal back-up to a M9 is of course another M9, but right now with the M10 on the horizon I'm hedging my bets while waiting ... the best back-up alternative would be something to use the M lenses on, Like the NEX ... but I like the form factor of this camera better, even if I'm not in love with the design of it.

Then there is the option of doing nothing in the interim.

All the best,

-Marc

BTW, Irakly puts his pants on one leg at a time, and if I got this camera I guarantee he'll grab it and disappear for a couple of days and then give his typical blunt and candid, but always fair, opinion one way or another.

i have the X100 and it does surprisingly good in low light. you have to get in a bit of a groove with it (and put it in AFC), but i've found a few instances where it has actually focused better than my eyes on the M

and don't forget (not that anyone here seems to really care about this) it focuses closer -- no limitation if you're in tight spaces.

we'll be in Paris for a day at the end of the week but i'm not sure whether i'll get to get my hands on one... i admit major curiosity but not lust. it's too big for me (the X100 is perfect size to take and shoot alongside an M).

i don't have Irakly's skill, but i promise to get shots out of the norm if i have the chance.

 

[fotografz]

Re: new Fuji X Pro1 camera (formerly called "new camera")

i have the X100 and it does surprisingly good in low light. you have to get in a bit of a groove with it (and put it in AFC), but i've found a few instances where it has actually focused better than my eyes on the M

and don't forget (not that anyone here seems to really care about this) it focuses closer -- no limitation if you're in tight spaces.

we'll be in Paris for a day at the end of the week but i'm not sure whether i'll get to get my hands on one... i admit major curiosity but not lust. it's too big for me (the X100 is perfect size to take and shoot alongside an M).

i don't have Irakly's skill, but i promise to get shots out of the norm if i have the chance.

Would be most interested in your take on those low light aspects ... especially since you seem to grasp how to exploit the X100 in AF mode in those sort of conditions.

Thanks,

Marc

 

[jonoslack]

Re: new Fuji X Pro1 camera (formerly called "new camera")

Here's a shocker ... after all my grousing, I may go ahead and get this camera anyway ... not as a replacement for my main M9P rangefinder camera, but as a back-up to it. I sold both my M9s, and it'll be a while before the M10 is out and available to evaluate verses the M9P (which I'll keep in any case anyway). My wife needs a camera, and if I don't like the Fuji, she may for all the reasons I don't

HI Marc
I'll be fascinated with your findings- I realise that my grouches are pretty personal ( I don't think I know another photographer who doesn't remember the G2 with affection).

Anyway, it's easy to be critical with 2 m9 bodies and a bunch of M lenses!

i have the X100 and it does surprisingly good in low light. you have to get in a bit of a groove with it (and put it in AFC), but i've found a few instances where it has actually focused better than my eyes on the M

and don't forget (not that anyone here seems to really care about this) it focuses closer -- no limitation if you're in tight spaces.

Oh! I do care about that - very much!

we'll be in Paris for a day at the end of the week but i'm not sure whether i'll get to get my hands on one... i admit major curiosity but not lust. it's too big for me (the X100 is perfect size to take and shoot alongside an M).

i don't have Irakly's skill, but i promise to get shots out of the norm if i have the chance.

Well, I'll be really interested in your findings.

all the best

 

[cam]

Re: new Fuji X Pro1 camera (formerly called "new camera")

Would be most interested in your take on those low light aspects ... especially since you seem to grasp how to exploit the X100 in AF mode in those sort of conditions.

if (and it's a big IF) i can get my hands on the new Fuji, i'll hopefully get to try it overnight... but, yes, there *are* ways to finesse it.

 

[jonoslack]

Re: new Fuji X Pro1 camera (formerly called "new camera")

if (and it's a big IF) i can get my hands on the new Fuji, i'll hopefully get to try it overnight... but, yes, there *are* ways to finesse it.

Me too (I'll be really interested) - I gave up in frustration - doesn't mean I was right!

 

[KeithL]

Re: new Fuji X Pro1 camera (formerly called "new camera")

Me too (I'll be really interested) - I gave up in frustration - doesn't mean I was right!

I can give up on a camera without ever making an exposure.

Take the NEX-7 for example, every time I picked one up all I wanted to do was put it down again. It was never going to be right for me even as a back-up camera so I never gave it a chance. Every camera I've loved felt right from day one.

Some things are just not meant to be.

 

[kit laughlin]

Re: new Fuji X Pro1 camera (formerly called "new camera")

All I'm waiting for is to see what it does with the M mount, and how MF is implemented with that setup. I agree completely with Marc re. the images accompanying that review. Consider Nick Devlin's lovely shot of Celine, for example, that accompanied his review: that's an unusual portrait that works, for me, and does show some lovely aspects of the lens and sensor.

 

[Vivek]

Re: new Fuji X Pro1 camera (formerly called "new camera")

The X-Pro1 would not be my first choice for using adapted lenses, with the current user interface, especially with any focal length close to the Fuji primes.

Key sequence.

--press center of command dial to magnify (this button is on the center right of the camera)
--press AF button and then the arrow buttons to move the focus point (AF button on far left of camera; arrow buttons back to center right)

It should instead be:

--press center of command dial to magnify
--press arrow buttons to move focus point

Press an AF button for manual focus? hmm.

If adapted lenses were my priority I'd go for a Ricoh or NEX first.

--The EVF on the NEX is pretty much agreed to be the best available
--focus peaking.

That said, the fantastic sensor and amazing high ISO might be enough for some users to go with the Fuji anyway.

A wide manual focus lens like a 15mm Voigtlander might be quite enjoyable on the Fuji by presetting the focus.

Perhaps Fuji will improve the UI and add focus peaking...that would change the game quite a lot.

Kit, Robert already wrote about that and it does not look very enticing as it is implemented now.

I am still interested in this camera and the lenses though.

 

[Vivek]

Re: new Fuji X Pro1 camera (formerly called "new camera")

I can give up on a camera without ever making an exposure.

Take the NEX-7 for example, every time I picked one up all I wanted to do was put it down again. It was never going to be right for me even as a back-up camera so I never gave it a chance. Every camera I've loved felt right from day one.

Some things are just not meant to be.

What is your primary camera at the moment?

 

[jonoslack]

Re: new Fuji X Pro1 camera (formerly called "new camera")

I can give up on a camera without ever making an exposure.

Take the NEX-7 for example, every time I picked one up all I wanted to do was put it down again. It was never going to be right for me even as a back-up camera so I never gave it a chance. Every camera I've loved felt right from day one.

Some things are just not meant to be.

I wanted to like the NEX7 - and I took around 2000 images with it. Focusing was fab, no criticisms with handling (lovely with R lenses) but, but, but - it seemed to get in the way between me and the subject (I was always thinking about the camera rather than the subject). I suspect that the real killer was buttons / dials that did different things in different circumstances (my small brain is not good at this).

The X100 was similar - I was always wondering EXACTLY where it had focused (on that eye . . . or the window behind it?) especially in OVF mode. . . . and the menus were full of stuff I really didn't want or need, but needed to be understood properly!

Roberts post for MF with legacy lenses:
Key sequence.

--press center of command dial to magnify (this button is on the center right of the camera)
--press AF button and then the arrow buttons to move the focus point (AF button on far left of camera; arrow buttons back to center right)

sounds to me like a perfect recipe for extreme irritation . . . how can you take pictures like that?


Going back to the M9 was a huge relief - I don't think it's familiarity. I think it's just that all you have to consider is the aperture, the shutter speed, the ISO and the focus. the X1, despite it's speed is rather similar.

all the best

 

[Vivek]

Re: new Fuji X Pro1 camera (formerly called "new camera")

I wanted to like the NEX7 - and I took around 2000 images with it. Focusing was fab, no criticisms with handling (lovely with R lenses) but, but, but - it seemed to get in the way between me and the subject (I was always thinking about the camera rather than the subject). I suspect that the real killer was buttons / dials that did different things in different circumstances (my small brain is not good at this).

The X100 was similar - I was always wondering EXACTLY where it had focused (on that eye . . . or the window behind it?) especially in OVF mode. . . . and the menus were full of stuff I really didn't want or need, but needed to be understood properly!

Roberts post for MF with legacy lenses:
Key sequence.

--press center of command dial to magnify (this button is on the center right of the camera)
--press AF button and then the arrow buttons to move the focus point (AF button on far left of camera; arrow buttons back to center right)

sounds to me like a perfect recipe for extreme irritation . . . how can you take pictures like that?


Going back to the M9 was a huge relief - I don't think it's familiarity. I think it's just that all you have to consider is the aperture, the shutter speed, the ISO and the focus. the X1, despite it's speed is rather similar.

all the best

Jono, I am genuinely curious. We saw many pictures when you had the NEX-7. What do you do with your M9s?

 

[kit laughlin]

Re: new Fuji X Pro1 camera (formerly called "new camera")

Vivek, thanks. I agree, does not look at that promising right now, and the camera plus one of the Fuji primes is not small. On the NEX 7 side, for a carry-everywhere body with one small lens (like the 35 Color Skopar) , it could be excellent. As an aside, the Fuji XS 1 was a bit too small for me, and the OVF was—a joke, frankly.

The problem with the X1 (again, and to pick up on something Jono said) is the external finder if you want to *see* what you are shooting: I had to leave this morning for Italy, and I am in Milano now, so could not take delivery of the NEX 5N with its EVF before I left: we know its sensor is good, but it's likely that its ergonomics will not suit either for the same reason (external EVF).

Could I get a NEX 7 for just one lens? Yes, probably. I find the GXR M with EVF great to use except for the 100% unergonomic finder: you simply cannot throw it in a bag, or pocket, with it on—and it's just a high-end P&S without it. And the EVF is only adequate, resolution-wise.

I can't recall who said this here, but the capacity to disable unwanted menu items/function would be brilliant, too, on any camera we are discussing.

For me, having spent some time recently with a friend's M8, and leaving aside the diopter aspect I wrote about—honestly I find that body fat and unergonomic too. I find the grip essential, and that added a chunk more bulk to the thickness.

I am finding peaking to be effective, if relatively slow (compared to the M8 rangefinder, even though it was not 'sharp'). I have been a photographer for many years and I immediately could feel/see how the rangefinder allows very fast MF. I love the images that the M8 makes, but do not like the body. I used M bodies in film days and remember them to be considerably sleeker.

If the X1 had an EVF with peaking like the NEX 7 and an EFOV of 45-50, I definitely would want to trial that. My hope is a peaking arrangement that works well enough over the whole finder image that the camera becomes as fast as an M8/M9. It will happen (I shot pro video on and off years ago; their finders definitely allow rapid focus-finding and pulling, with certainty of accuracy of focus).

So, once I get back from italy, if the NEX 5N doesn't work out, then I will try a NEX 7.

Demanding sods, aren't we all?