Fuji XS-1

[Jim Radcliffe]

Fuji has already acknowledged (thought it doe depend apparently who you ask! ) that this is a sensor issue. The firmware will only try to reduce the effect but the sensor is what it is.

- Raist

Yep, I knew that. I find their response to be less than satisfying. This is obviously a sensor flaw and frankly, in my opinion, they should have never allowed this particular sensor to be placed in any of their cameras.

I use the X10 and it is capable of doing some wonderful things.. as long as there are no specular highlights in the shot. I'm not returning mine but I do feel Fuji owes those who bought, what I feel is a flawed camera, some form of rebate. Fuji did not test the sensor thoroughly enough or they would have caught this sensor flaw.

I would not have purchased the X10 had I known the sensor had that issue and I did not discover the issue until almost a month after I bought the camera.

I like the X10 for so many reasons.. it's just a huge shame that this flaw exists and Fuji never caught it or decided that it was a minor issue, not worthy of being addressed.

If the Fuji XS-1 uses the same sensor it will probably have the same problem.

 

[raist3d]

Yep, I knew that. I find their response to be less than satisfying. This is obviously a sensor flaw and frankly, in my opinion, they should have never allowed this particular sensor to be placed in any of their cameras.

I use the X10 and it is capable of doing some wonderful things.. as long as there are no specular highlights in the shot. I'm not returning mine but I do feel Fuji owes those who bought, what I feel is a flawed camera, some form of rebate. Fuji did not test the sensor thoroughly enough or they would have caught this sensor flaw.

I would not have purchased the X10 had I known the sensor had that issue and I did not discover the issue until almost a month after I bought the camera.

Well not to sound contrarian or anything but it looks like you got the camera on November 13,2011 and you were reporting on orbs by November 29, 2011 (1/2 a month). Why you didn't return it? Don't know if the place you bought it from has a return policy of 30 days though.

Why say you are not returning it if you wouldn't have bought it in the first place if you knew about the issues a priori?

That said, I think for this issue is hard to draw the line. Should someone say the same thing for say a Canon G11 that has severe chromatic aberrations wide open? Or the P&S they bought that can't focus in reasonable moderate light? I think what makes this stand out is that it usually hasn't happened with other cameras.

I am inclined to agree with you that it would be nice of Fuji to do something, I am not sure if I would agree that they have to. Have to think a bit more on that. The X10 is hardly useless and all cameras have something that is not quite right. I say that the day the perfect camera comes along the universe will come to an end as several key universal laws will be violated

What I would say also is, this says something about buying equipment blind on first release without waiting for reviews. I think it also says something indirectly about buying camera after camera after new camera that gets released. There's an aspect to this gear acquisition or perhaps greed, that makes this constant dice rolling an ever growing risk one will buy something new and shiny with barely any real world battle testing, with some glaring issue.

If you feel Fuji has been very irresponsible, vote with your wallet- don't buy stuff from them. That includes that nice X1-pro.

- Raist

 

[Jim Radcliffe]

Well not to sound contrarian or anything but it looks like you got the camera on November 13,2011 and you were reporting on orbs by November 29, 2011 (1/2 a month). Why you didn't return it? Don't know if the place you bought it from has a return policy of 30 days though.

Why say you are not returning it if you wouldn't have bought it in the first place if you knew about the issues a priori?

- Raist

Feel free to be contrary.....

As I stated in my review of the X10 along with sample photos.. it does so many things right that I would not return it just for the ORBS problem... but, in all honesty, if I had known about the ORBS while I was considering buying it.. I would not have made the purchase. Having made the purchase I found the camera to be extremely good in many other respects.. but last night I did have a good photo op ruined because the camera could not handle the specular highlights involved in the scene I was shooting.

If Fuji has put the same sensor in yet another camera and the problem is due to the sensor then that is just not the proper thing to do. The X10 is the only camera I have ever owned (and I've owned a lot of cameras) that does not handle specular highlights properly.

 

[ustein]

>but last night I did have a good photo op ruined because the camera could not handle the specular highlights

That is of course annoying.

 

[raist3d]

Feel free to be contrary.....

As I stated in my review of the X10 along with sample photos.. it does so many things right that I would not return it just for the ORBS problem... but, in all honesty, if I had known about the ORBS while I was considering buying it.. I would not have made the purchase. Having made the purchase I found the camera to be extremely good in many other respects.. but last night I did have a good photo op ruined because the camera could not handle the specular highlights involved in the scene I was shooting.

Ok that makes more sense to me now (i.e you found many advantages to it,a and now you rather keep).

If Fuji has put the same sensor in yet another camera and the problem is due to the sensor then that is just not the proper thing to do. The X10 is the only camera I have ever owned (and I've owned a lot of cameras) that does not handle specular highlights properly.

Yes, it has the same exact sensor. I wonder if they will try to fix the design somehow and do a "new stepping" of the sensor, but this is not a trivial engineering task.

- Raist

 

[lowep]

so you mean cameras like this one are just like people - they have some built in design flaws that continue to crop up again and again like a scratch in a gramophone record but sometimes they also surprise with nice features that make putting up with the peevishness worthwhile.

not being very tolerant of either camera or human frailty (apart from my own) I am sitting this one out watching like many others and waiting in my case for a full frame compact something like the M9 in an affordable package.

:watch:

 

[Jim Radcliffe]

so you mean cameras like this one are just like people - they have some built in design flaws that continue to crop up again and again like a scratch in a gramophone record but sometimes they also surprise with nice features that make putting up with the peevishness worthwhile.

:watch:

Fuji obviously did not do enough testing where this particular sensor is concerned. If they had, they would have noticed the problem. I think this may have been a "Rush to Market" ooops. Leica made the same mistake with the M8 and the IR sensitivity. Leica's "fix" was to offer IR cut filters to everyone who bought the M8. So we had to place another piece of glass in front of that great Leica glass to eliminate the IR issue... not a good solution but the only one Leica offered. Firmware couldn't fix it. Fuji has yet to offer anything in the way of a fix and frankly, I don't think they can fix this problem short of replacing the sensor as this seems to be a characteristic of the sensor and not something a firmware update can eliminate.

My fear is that Fuji will try to "fix" or lessen the problem with specular highlights at the expense of some other parameter or feature of the camera.

What I am saying is that the XS-1 has the same sensor and will probably have the same problem... yet Fuji went ahead with the launch of that camera anyway knowing that the sensor it contains has "issues". It just doesn't seem right to me.

 

[Terry]

My fear is that Fuji will try to "fix" or lessen the problem with specular highlights at the expense of some other parameter or feature of the camera.

This is one instance where I would NOT rush to update the firmware and let others test it for you.

 

[jonoslack]

What I am saying is that the XS-1 has the same sensor and will probably have the same problem... yet Fuji went ahead with the launch of that camera anyway knowing that the sensor it contains has "issues". It just doesn't seem right to me.

They're probably hoping that those that really object to the specular highlights move on, and those that don't move on will stop talking about it.

People still love the M8 for it's good points (and quite right too) - the shortcomings are such old conversations that nobody bothers with them anymore.

If you're right about the XS-1, and in the knowledge that ordering the sensors for cameras may be a two year lead time, they were probably faced with two options:
1. go for it and hope for the best
2. shelve the camera for at least a year and probably two (i.e bin the whole project and start from scratch)

On the other hand - even if it's not fixable in firmware, it may be fixable with a small hardware change - which they probably would have had time to do.

Whatever the truth is, I doubt they'll tell us!

 

[raist3d]

I think it's entirely possible that Fuji knew the issue and they decided that it was still ok to ship this way.

So a few options here for the X10'ners:

- sue Fuji class action style, and if orbs show on the XS-1 you bolster your case
- sell your X10
- accept your X10 with its pros and cons- even what you think are design flaws.

This is a sensor issue. Anyone else thinking a firmware will do a miracle fix is only living in denial, imho.

PS: I must say, for all the fun a lot at dpreview/fuji forum made of the Pentax Q, the Q doesn't have any issues like these. My deal breaker with the X10 was not this issue.

 

[dhsimmonds]

Well it hasn't stopped Uwe posting some fantastic images taken with his X10 and posted here on the X10 thread.

I would imagine that Fujifim have already made a batch of these sensors and are hoping to use them up before updating the design. It comes down to risk management by a manufacturer when faced with this sort of problem. Nobody is likely to die as a result of a few light orbs, but reputations are easily lost!

I shall wait and see if the latest production models of the Xs-1 have the same problem.

 

[lowep]

class action suit: orbs versus blobs?

 

[jonoslack]

Well it hasn't stopped Uwe posting some fantastic images taken with his X10 and posted here on the X10 thread.

I would imagine that Fujifim have already made a batch of these sensors and are hoping to use them up before updating the design. It comes down to risk management by a manufacturer when faced with this sort of problem. Nobody is likely to die as a result of a few light orbs, but reputations are easily lost!

Well - indeed they are - but only for a minute or two - I suspect that reports of light orbs will forgotten very soon.

 

[ptomsu]

Well it hasn't stopped Uwe posting some fantastic images taken with his X10 and posted here on the X10 thread.

I would imagine that Fujifim have already made a batch of these sensors and are hoping to use them up before updating the design. It comes down to risk management by a manufacturer when faced with this sort of problem. Nobody is likely to die as a result of a few light orbs, but reputations are easily lost!

I shall wait and see if the latest production models of the Xs-1 have the same problem.

I have doen lot of search for this ORB issue now and must say that I am not really concerned. There are a number of other cameras on the market which are not even performing that excellent as the X10 does WRT to ORB.

I must say that I really HATE all this hype making in different Fora on the internet. And most times if you look carefully the ones who start such hypes are just in a different boat and thus try to make (discuss) their decisions "good" not to have chosen a specific product.

I must also say that I was more often disappointed by the not so optimal function of specific products from almost all the vendors we are discussing here, than this little ORB issue is disappointing me.

The X10 is a fantastic camera (concept) and performs in so many areas well above average that this is a clear go! Similar foe the XS1, which IMHO is the first really acceptable "bridge" design.

So I would suggest stopping all that negative hype and start using these products - OR - leave them alone and don't look any longer to Fujifilm. Which will definitely not be true in my case!

Peter

 

[Jim Radcliffe]

The X10 is a fantastic camera (concept) and performs in so many areas well above average that this is a clear go! Similar foe the XS1, which IMHO is the first really acceptable "bridge" design.

So I would suggest stopping all that negative hype and start using these products - OR - leave them alone and don't look any longer to Fujifilm. Which will definitely not be true in my case!

Peter

I agree.. the X10 is a very good camera. There are those in other forums who constantly rant about the ORB issue and just will not let it go. I don't think anyone thinks the way the X10 handles specular highlights is correct. It truly does make a mess of things sometimes.

Most of the time this not an issue for me but when it does happen on a really good photo as it did the other night, it really is bothersome. Had I been using any of my other cameras (GF1, GH2, K5 or even the D-Lux 5) I would have had a keeper.

I think many are upset that having spent the money on the X10 that it does not handle the specular highlight issue as well as cheaper and older cameras.. I think that is what really bothers many. It bothers me but not enough for me to give up the X10.. as it does do so many things better than other cameras in its class.

As for stopping the negative hype... well, I think most X10 owners deserve a camera that does handle specular highlights properly. So, of course, they run to the forums and vent, which is not to be unexpected. The price of the X10 is considerable to some and to a certain extent their disappointment is justified. Fuji should have caught the issue and maybe they did but felt it was not that big a deal. I'm still waiting to hear some response from Fuji other than "It's normal blooming." as it clearly is not. I am still hoping for a firmware release that at least will lessen the effect without impacting (in a negative way) other capabilties of the X10.

 

[ptomsu]

I am still hoping for a firmware release that at least will lessen the effect without impacting (in a negative way) other capabilties of the X10.

+1

 

[Terry]

I agree.. the X10 is a very good camera. There are those in other forums who constantly rant about the ORB issue and just will not let it go. I don't think anyone thinks the way the X10 handles specular highlights is correct. It truly does make a mess of things sometimes.

Most of the time this not an issue for me but when it does happen on a really good photo as it did the other night, it really is bothersome. Had I been using any of my other cameras (GF1, GH2, K5 or even the D-Lux 5) I would have had a keeper.

I think many are upset that having spent the money on the X10 that it does not handle the specular highlight issue as well as cheaper and older cameras.. I think that is what really bothers many. It bothers me but not enough for me to give up the X10.. as it does do so many things better than other cameras in its class.

As for stopping the negative hype... well, I think most X10 owners deserve a camera that does handle specular highlights properly. So, of course, they run to the forums and vent, which is not to be unexpected. The price of the X10 is considerable to some and to a certain extent their disappointment is justified. Fuji should have caught the issue and maybe they did but felt it was not that big a deal. I'm still waiting to hear some response from Fuji other than "It's normal blooming." as it clearly is not. I am still hoping for a firmware release that at least will lessen the effect without impacting (in a negative way) other capabilties of the X10.

Photoshop is no help?

 

[Jim Radcliffe]

Photoshop is no help?

Of course I can fix some of the orbs in Photoshop but the point is.. I should not have to do so.

The shot from the other night had many, many high intensity lights in the restaurant (small halogens) and it would have taken hours to fix them all.

 

[dhsimmonds]

Fujifilm are extremely quick usually in fixing any bugs in firmware updates. The X100 had three firmware updates in almost as many months!

My guess that this is not an easy firmware up date but not worth (to them anyway) changing the design at this stage. Jono is probably correct in surmising that they have built a large batch of sensors that need to be used up.

The X11 and X-S2 might be the ones to go for! However, if your style of photography rarely if ever results in ever seeing these light orbs, anyone who already has or ordered either camera shouldn't be too concerned.

Jono's analogy of the M8 issues is a classic example. The M8 was sent out on a huge beta testing program, with trusted photographers using pre-launch cameras extensively and there were no reports of the IR problems that became apparent after the same camera was on the open market.

The resulting internet and press fury was massive , but then the camera was sold for thousands rather than hundreds! Now the M8 and M8.2 are much sought after on the used camera market, still with exactly the same problematic sensor! For any photographer not engaged in fashion photography it is still a first class camera!

Much the same can be assumed of the X10 and possibly the newer X-S1. Fujifilm will have made this assessment themselves for sure.

 

[Jim Radcliffe]

Jono's analogy of the M8 issues is a classic example. The M8 was sent out on a huge beta testing program, with trusted photographers using pre-launch cameras extensively and there were no reports of the IR problems that became apparent after the same camera was on the open market.

The resulting internet and press fury was massive , but then the camera was sold for thousands rather than hundreds! Now the M8 and M8.2 are much sought after on the used camera market, still with exactly the same problematic sensor! For any photographer not engaged in fashion photography it is still a first class camera!

Much the same can be assumed of the X10 and possibly the newer X-S1. Fujifilm will have made this assessment themselves for sure.

I think you are correct in that Fuji has a stock of those sensors and wants to get rid of them.. and I am betting that the X-S1 may be the last camera to use that exact sensor.

The M8 and M8.2 are sought after for entirely different reasons than the X10. First, it's a Leica. Second, many who cannot afford an M9 will opt for the much cheaper (now) M8 or M8.2. I doubt that the X10 will become a sought after camera on the used market. We're talking apples and oranges here.