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weinschela
Subscriber Member
To the moderators: I understand the rule about price policing, but as I understand it, that was intended to avoid having someone posting beat up in public for pricing too high. Nobody needs protection against that. If the price is "too high" but a seller wants to pay it, so be it. That is the marketplace working. But here there are legitimate concerns about whether the sale posting itself is legitimate, based on the price as being too low. Suppose that one of our member had leapt at the post and sent the seller money only to find out it was a scam. Too late, and too bad you may say, but if the forum is about us looking after each other, there would be no way to do that in those circumstances. So I believe the intent of the price policing rules is not violated when there is a legitimate question about the bona fides of the seller and the offered transaction.
Could, for example, the first responding post say: "Warning: this is the first post by this person and I am suspicious" without violating the forum policy? If that is a violation then we really can't look out for each other can we? And if the answer is that such a post would not violate the policy, then what is the difference between that and saying "Warning: this is the first post by this person and I am suspicious because the price seems way out of whack."?
In other words, I vote for a common sense application of the rules: No public arguing that the price is too high, but permissible to warn if there are warning signs (e.g., new poster; price too good to be true).
Could, for example, the first responding post say: "Warning: this is the first post by this person and I am suspicious" without violating the forum policy? If that is a violation then we really can't look out for each other can we? And if the answer is that such a post would not violate the policy, then what is the difference between that and saying "Warning: this is the first post by this person and I am suspicious because the price seems way out of whack."?
In other words, I vote for a common sense application of the rules: No public arguing that the price is too high, but permissible to warn if there are warning signs (e.g., new poster; price too good to be true).
tom in mpls
Active member
Guy, some sites require membership for a minimum length of time, or a minimum number of posts on other forums, before a member may post a FS. Have you given some thought to that?
I just got a fedex tracking #. will be here tomorrow@ 10 am, I just put a very good life ins in my wife head.
kids are to little, so I will take everyone out, in be a block away,I tell my wife to open it in if she like it, to keep it, so she will be happy to open it very fast . I may get rich after all.
BasR
kids are to little, so I will take everyone out, in be a block away,I tell my wife to open it in if she like it, to keep it, so she will be happy to open it very fast . I may get rich after all.
BasR
I totally don't get what you just said here..
Right over my head.
Bottom line, we go by "Let the buyer beware." We are all grown-ups and it is not your concern to get involved unless you are asked to by a potential buyer, which in turn should be done via PM, not publicly! IOW, DO NOT PRICE POLICE IN PUBLIC, DO NOT QUESTION OR COMMENT IN PUBLIC ON SELLER INTEGRITY IF YOU HAVE NO DRECT KNOWLEDGE OF THE SELLER. If you do have prior, negative experience with a seller, place it in the "Negative Feedback" section which is where it belongs...
Thank you for your concern, but understand going forward this is not open for public debate, especially inside somebody else's FS post which is simply rude.
I hope this clarifies our position for all involved regardless of whether or not you agree with it.
So in other words the right of someone to try to perpetrate a scam upon an unknowing victim is more respected than those of fellow forum members trying to do the right thing and watch out for one another ???
"let the buyer beware" ??? Thats really the attitude this place is about ??
I'm sorry but the main reason I feel comfortable buying some high dollar items that this forum seems to specialize in is because I feel theres a good since of community here watching my back and its made up of good upstanding fellow photographers.
Think I'd just go off and send someone nearly $6000 for a M9 that I saw listed on some other forums on the net ? Not on your life.
But here, I was able to get lots of firsthand accounts that the seller is honest, people that have dealt with that person actually took the time to message me and let me know I can trust that person because they too realize its a big sum of money.
Thats special and not something you find often these days and I would think the administrators above all else would want to encourage that type of mentality here, not "buyer beware".
This whole course of events is just disappointing to me. Its no different than a news story where someone stops a criminal from breaking into a neighbors home while they are away and then the criminal ends up suing them for $1 million dollars because he got injured during the scuffle.
I think everyone who stepped up in this thread is the good guy, not the bad guy. This is what keeps those with less than honorable intentions from posting here and rather sticking with the free for all that is Ebay, because they know they can get away with it there so much more easily.
Whats worse ? Posting a message of caution today or posting a message of sympathy next week in a thread about how someone's fighting with their credit card company to get their $850 back ??
Last but not least, I guess I should apologize for being rude to someone posting a scam. Wouldn't want to give them the impression we don't want that type of thing here would we ???
"let the buyer beware" ??? Thats really the attitude this place is about ??
I'm sorry but the main reason I feel comfortable buying some high dollar items that this forum seems to specialize in is because I feel theres a good since of community here watching my back and its made up of good upstanding fellow photographers.
Think I'd just go off and send someone nearly $6000 for a M9 that I saw listed on some other forums on the net ? Not on your life.
But here, I was able to get lots of firsthand accounts that the seller is honest, people that have dealt with that person actually took the time to message me and let me know I can trust that person because they too realize its a big sum of money.
Thats special and not something you find often these days and I would think the administrators above all else would want to encourage that type of mentality here, not "buyer beware".
This whole course of events is just disappointing to me. Its no different than a news story where someone stops a criminal from breaking into a neighbors home while they are away and then the criminal ends up suing them for $1 million dollars because he got injured during the scuffle.
I think everyone who stepped up in this thread is the good guy, not the bad guy. This is what keeps those with less than honorable intentions from posting here and rather sticking with the free for all that is Ebay, because they know they can get away with it there so much more easily.
Whats worse ? Posting a message of caution today or posting a message of sympathy next week in a thread about how someone's fighting with their credit card company to get their $850 back ??
Last but not least, I guess I should apologize for being rude to someone posting a scam. Wouldn't want to give them the impression we don't want that type of thing here would we ???
Terry
New member
Ok,
Look everyone...you all have a brain. For all of those complaining please use some common sense. What is the probability that you would buy a camera from a first time poster, that shows no picture, at a wonky price, where they link to an email address?
If the moderators or owners of the forum try to step into policing buy and sells it sets an uncomfortable precedent for what their level of responsibility is.
If in this case you were truly concerned about someone stepping into a bad sale you could simply say in a post:
Please post pictures
Is this brand new what is the shot count?
What country are you shipping from?
What is the warranty situation?
All of these questions can help illicit a response that would make it clear if it were a good sale or not.
So, again this is not some arbitrary decision as to how to handle the buy and sell, it is an attempt to stick to a good set of rules that are clearly spelled out.
.
Look everyone...you all have a brain. For all of those complaining please use some common sense. What is the probability that you would buy a camera from a first time poster, that shows no picture, at a wonky price, where they link to an email address?
If the moderators or owners of the forum try to step into policing buy and sells it sets an uncomfortable precedent for what their level of responsibility is.
If in this case you were truly concerned about someone stepping into a bad sale you could simply say in a post:
Please post pictures
Is this brand new what is the shot count?
What country are you shipping from?
What is the warranty situation?
All of these questions can help illicit a response that would make it clear if it were a good sale or not.
So, again this is not some arbitrary decision as to how to handle the buy and sell, it is an attempt to stick to a good set of rules that are clearly spelled out.
.
+1 Tom!
I was thinking just that. This way, it helps to weed out potential scams a bit more.
Not that I am saying this FS post here in any way is a scam.
johnnygoesdigital
New member
I'm voting for Millsart
Well Said Jeff (Millsart) I couldn't agree more.
Some years ago I got burned on Photo.net. It wasn't a lowball price, but never the less. After I posted what happened, I found out it happened to others, but up until that point no one said anything.
After my post, seems about 10 people got screwed. It could have stopped at 1.
Some years ago I got burned on Photo.net. It wasn't a lowball price, but never the less. After I posted what happened, I found out it happened to others, but up until that point no one said anything.
After my post, seems about 10 people got screwed. It could have stopped at 1.
Terry, isn't that exactly the point though ? That the moderators/owners of the forum don't have to have any level of policing or responsibility because the forum community here will speak up when needed ?
Didn't Pete do exactly what you suggest someone do with his post ??
Would I expect most people here to fall for something like this ? No, but obviously some people do get suckered because if they didn't, crooks wouldn't still be trying such schemes.
The very fact that so many forum members jumped right on this not only made sure no one could foolish fall victim, but also sends a pretty clear message that this forum isn't easy prey and those who wish to take advantage of others should do it elsewhere.
I just don't see what the negative in any of that is ??
Does anyone want to encourage these types of scams ??
Does anyone want to see someone cheated ??
Don't get me wrong, the rules are fine and good when it comes to HONEST people. If someone's price is too high, they are trying to do a little "market pricing" on an often out of stock item etc then no, thats not the place for anyone else to speak up. Rules are clear about that.
But were those rules written in regards to post like this ?? I certainly would hope not. I can't image anyone would want to make a set of rules that help/encourage criminal activity.
My normal rules or how I live my life is to be polite and respectful to everyone. I think thats how most of us live our lives, HOWEVER, if lets say someone is breaking into our home/threatening our loved ones, suddenly those rules go out the window.
Rules just can certainly be firm but they can't be blindly enforced for all situations.
Didn't Pete do exactly what you suggest someone do with his post ??
Would I expect most people here to fall for something like this ? No, but obviously some people do get suckered because if they didn't, crooks wouldn't still be trying such schemes.
The very fact that so many forum members jumped right on this not only made sure no one could foolish fall victim, but also sends a pretty clear message that this forum isn't easy prey and those who wish to take advantage of others should do it elsewhere.
I just don't see what the negative in any of that is ??
Does anyone want to encourage these types of scams ??
Does anyone want to see someone cheated ??
Don't get me wrong, the rules are fine and good when it comes to HONEST people. If someone's price is too high, they are trying to do a little "market pricing" on an often out of stock item etc then no, thats not the place for anyone else to speak up. Rules are clear about that.
But were those rules written in regards to post like this ?? I certainly would hope not. I can't image anyone would want to make a set of rules that help/encourage criminal activity.
My normal rules or how I live my life is to be polite and respectful to everyone. I think thats how most of us live our lives, HOWEVER, if lets say someone is breaking into our home/threatening our loved ones, suddenly those rules go out the window.
Rules just can certainly be firm but they can't be blindly enforced for all situations.
johnnygoesdigital
New member
Terry, I disagree. New members might just jump right in for this camera. New members should be required to post several comments before selling gear, it establishes a history and dare I say, a profile that other members can build a trust upon. It seems the second comment asked all the right questions, but got trounced on...
I didn't carefully read all of your reply but when I read this,
"I feel comfortable buying some high dollar items that this forum seems to specialize in is because I feel theres a good since of community here watching my back and its made up of good upstanding fellow photographers."
I thought I should reply just to provide my thoughts in any online forum.
Q. What's at stake for the seller here if they get caught with scam?
A. Their forum account would be banned, but nothing stops them from joining again with a different email address. If you are scamming someone out of thousands of dollars, maybe it's worth it? It really depends on the individual's morals. Really, not that much at risk here.
Q. Who is legally liable if you are scammed in an online forum?
A. Seller.
Q. Are there any legal course of action that you can take?
A. If you are lucky, paypal has limited course of action they can take for transaction that happened outside of E-bay (I'm hoping on this one). Paid with Paypal gift? no protection.
Q. Is the forum community legally liable for the scam?
A. No, community provides equal right to every member unless forum rules are broken. The forum did not participate in the scam.
Q. Is there a preventive system in place to disallow scammers from joining forums?
A. No, scammers cannot be detected and cannot be enforced. However, someone mentioned that maybe we should have a minimum number of posts before allowing to post for sale ads. Typically, scammers' first post is a scam, so this may help, but obviously it's not 100% fool proof.
I mean, yeah, I like the feel of community. Yeah, we look out for each other. Yeah, we let people know if he/she's a definite scammer. We all love that feel of belonging in forums. Problem is, forum cannot prevent scammers from joining, so the feel of community is really a false sense of security. Because forum should provide equal opportunity to all its members, unless there is evidence to prove that it's a scam, forum will not evoke the right given to its members.
I would have to agree with the mods on this one.
"I feel comfortable buying some high dollar items that this forum seems to specialize in is because I feel theres a good since of community here watching my back and its made up of good upstanding fellow photographers."
I thought I should reply just to provide my thoughts in any online forum.
Q. What's at stake for the seller here if they get caught with scam?
A. Their forum account would be banned, but nothing stops them from joining again with a different email address. If you are scamming someone out of thousands of dollars, maybe it's worth it? It really depends on the individual's morals. Really, not that much at risk here.
Q. Who is legally liable if you are scammed in an online forum?
A. Seller.
Q. Are there any legal course of action that you can take?
A. If you are lucky, paypal has limited course of action they can take for transaction that happened outside of E-bay (I'm hoping on this one). Paid with Paypal gift? no protection.
Q. Is the forum community legally liable for the scam?
A. No, community provides equal right to every member unless forum rules are broken. The forum did not participate in the scam.
Q. Is there a preventive system in place to disallow scammers from joining forums?
A. No, scammers cannot be detected and cannot be enforced. However, someone mentioned that maybe we should have a minimum number of posts before allowing to post for sale ads. Typically, scammers' first post is a scam, so this may help, but obviously it's not 100% fool proof.
I mean, yeah, I like the feel of community. Yeah, we look out for each other. Yeah, we let people know if he/she's a definite scammer. We all love that feel of belonging in forums. Problem is, forum cannot prevent scammers from joining, so the feel of community is really a false sense of security. Because forum should provide equal opportunity to all its members, unless there is evidence to prove that it's a scam, forum will not evoke the right given to its members.
I would have to agree with the mods on this one.
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
Here is the bottom line and you all need to pay special attention to it and then i will lock the thread.
Everyone here is basing this on assumptions one way or another. WE do NOT have ANY legal credible evidence that the OP is a scam, a thief or simply a person that made a typo on their ad. Just because the price is low does not mean ANYTHING and that they are NEW does not mean anything. New people as well as experienced people on forums make simply mistakes. There is no legal evidence for this forum and its owners and officials to base anything on it being anything but simply a bad post with some really good general information posted on the ad itself. As i said in the beginning one should always give as much description to their ad to give themselves as best possible chance to sell. That is advice not a rule. The OP did nothing wrong at ALL except maybe left out some pertinent information that would help their sale and admittedly help there reputation as they are new. Lets remember the NEW part as they may not have read the rules and they did NOT break any.
You can assume anything you want and asking questions on condition and information that would pertain to sale is all relevant questions. What condition , where you shipping from have any references since you are new here blah blah blah. All good stuff
BTW the new members are moderated and this was let through by our moderation since NO rules are broken but maybe a typo or maybe someone just wants to sell fast. It's all assumptions there is no legal base to think anything else but the post itself. That is what we have to go by is the actual words themselves until proven otherwise just like any other legal system.
Frankly the rest folks is all assumptions which have no legal or moral base until any evidence dictates differently. Thank you all for your concern . Guy
Anything outside of that we ask you send a PM and discuss in private.
Everyone here is basing this on assumptions one way or another. WE do NOT have ANY legal credible evidence that the OP is a scam, a thief or simply a person that made a typo on their ad. Just because the price is low does not mean ANYTHING and that they are NEW does not mean anything. New people as well as experienced people on forums make simply mistakes. There is no legal evidence for this forum and its owners and officials to base anything on it being anything but simply a bad post with some really good general information posted on the ad itself. As i said in the beginning one should always give as much description to their ad to give themselves as best possible chance to sell. That is advice not a rule. The OP did nothing wrong at ALL except maybe left out some pertinent information that would help their sale and admittedly help there reputation as they are new. Lets remember the NEW part as they may not have read the rules and they did NOT break any.
You can assume anything you want and asking questions on condition and information that would pertain to sale is all relevant questions. What condition , where you shipping from have any references since you are new here blah blah blah. All good stuff
BTW the new members are moderated and this was let through by our moderation since NO rules are broken but maybe a typo or maybe someone just wants to sell fast. It's all assumptions there is no legal base to think anything else but the post itself. That is what we have to go by is the actual words themselves until proven otherwise just like any other legal system.
Frankly the rest folks is all assumptions which have no legal or moral base until any evidence dictates differently. Thank you all for your concern . Guy
Anything outside of that we ask you send a PM and discuss in private.
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