Let's get some things straight RE: Condition

[Vobluda]

I disagree and I will write the description in MY add as I find convinient.

NEW = in the box, unused, as you would get it from a shop, no exceptions.

MINT = looks LIKE NEW, no marks other than fingerprints, functions like NEW.

EXCELLENT = a couple of VERY light signs of use, maybe a little dust between elements, but nothing visible without a bright light shining through. No brassing. Functions perfectly.

USER = brassing/marks on the body, no deep (deforming) dents or gouges. maybe light faint cleaning marks. Functions very well with no problems.

UGLY = deep gouges in body, scratches that may affect image quality, possibly fungus, functioning. Maybe missing large sections of leatherette.

FOR PARTS/AS-IS = not functioning, serious scratches/dents/marks. ANYTHING from a smoking environment.

If anyone disagrees please let me know but I am SICK AND TIRED of buying things online described as MINT, MINT- or EXCELLENT++ only to find out they're more like USER or even UGLY in some cases. I'm at wits end. I think I'm going to happily pay the premium to buy used items from a store in future. Mods please move if I didn't post it in the right place

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Personally I never use the word mint myself. I mostly use the phrase excellent condition or good condition. Or if it is really clean LNIB. It is subjective and we do encourage very highly pictures here on the site. But I'm also guilty of not posting pictures on some items too. From my seat it usually comes down to someone I know and if I don't know them than I ask for pictures. I also have sort of a threshold price in my head if it's under 1k not to much risk but after that it's real money and like to see something if I don't know the person. Now that is me and my money talking.

 

[Vobluda]

Of course accordingly to the rules of the forum.

I disagree and I will write the description in MY add as I find convinient.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Of course accordingly to the rules of the forum.

Thank you

 

[stpf8]

I agree that it's wise to avoid the use of the word "mint." For a truly exceptional piece of equipment, I like to use the word "near-mint" and then a more detailed description, just to give myself room and to focus on a more detailed description rather than relying on a single word to carry the message.

Bottom line for me is: no surprises. I don't like to be surprised in a negative way by some aspect of an item I receive, and I don't want my buyers to be similarly surprised.

 

[luke_28]

Daniel - I agree with your assessment of condition, and while I have had only a minor problem or two on other forums, the sellers were able to remedy the situation.

As I read posts on a forum, if I find someone that I don't particularly agree with their attitude, I just add them to my ignore list. If a seller comes up on my ignore list, there is no way I will deal with them, even if it is a great deal on something that I'm looking for. Probably not the wisest way to handle things, but the way I prefer.

 

[thrice]

I think the old adage: "if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is" applies well to photography gear, but for me it's an obsession to find the exception to the rule. It almost always ends up costing me more than just buying the nice condition one with lots of pictures in the first place

 

[EH21]

In this forum I have found sellers fraudulently using pictures of gear that I listed elsewhere to create bogus for sale listings. In one other case a seller was trying to sell an item that was known to be stolen. I reported the two above incidents to the owners of this forum and was surprised by the defensive posture almost protecting these 'sellers'. Caveat emptor does apply. Accurate descriptions are important, but I'd also advise buyers to be wary of sellers that change their user name frequently or don't participate in other threads. There's a reason why such people feel they need to trade under several user id's.

 

[Jack]

EH21,

Unfortunately, you never gave us any proof other than your words against the other party. We do not have any authority to "enforce" laws, nor will we act on a statement from anyone about the actions of another without hard proof. In other words, your word that somebody else did such and such, is not enough for us to take action against another person. What if the table had been turned, and the other claims you stole his picture? That is why we choose to stay out of it, and further CLEARLY state that use of the B&S is at your risk.

So, what can you do? 1) YOU are free to warn in the feedback section, and why we put it there in the first place. 2) Anybody that expects us to take action needs to provide us with incontrovertible proof of their claim before we can do anything. Note that a photo of a piece of gear without your copyright in the photo is useless to us; note that an email or PM saying so-and-so screwed me out of $XXX is useless to us; note that 30 of you all saying you got screwed by so-and-so is USELSS to us without hard PROOF of your claims, but probably would work pretty darn well if you all posted it in the feedback section.

FWIW, if I get any more static about our "inaction" on dealing with this issue, I will exercise the intelligent alternative: shut the B&S down permanently. Keep in mind we make nothing on the B&S and offer it to you free of charge and warn that it is at your own risk, period.

PS: If you don't like it the way it is, then don't use it, simple as that.

 

[EH21]

Deleted by Jack. Ed, take this up with me offline, I will not argue with you in public. If you persist, I will ban you. Bottom line is what you sent me was not PROOF, you may think it was, but it was not. More to the point I will repeat: if you don't like the way we run the B&S, do not use it!

PS: The other reality is the person you refer to was ultimately banned.

 

[saxshooter]

In this forum I have found sellers fraudulently using pictures of gear that I listed elsewhere to create bogus for sale listings. In one other case a seller was trying to sell an item that was known to be stolen. I reported the two above incidents to the owners of this forum and was surprised by the defensive posture almost protecting these 'sellers'. Caveat emptor does apply. Accurate descriptions are important, but I'd also advise buyers to be wary of sellers that change their user name frequently or don't participate in other threads. There's a reason why such people feel they need to trade under several user id's.

I hope you flagged the posts for everyone to see by posting a reply into the ad's thread.

Caveat Emptor, folks.

Look at the poster/seller. When did they join? Are they active in forum discussions? All the information is there. Just click on the name and do some research.

Search for the poster/seller's name in the feedback section.

Ask for pictures if none are posted. Ask questions.

Thank you moderators for this free Buy and Sell forum. I would hate to see it go away.

 

[Jack]

I hope you flagged the posts for everyone to see by posting a reply into the ad's thread.

No. Direct accusations that cannot be proved are not allowed. Use the FEEDBACK section stating YOUR EXPERIENCE!

If you have to warn in the actual FS post, say something obtuse like, "Can you post a picture of the item with today's paper?" or even , "Gee you only have 2 posts here, can you point to some other sales on other sites you've completed?" Or something along those lines. Folks here are savvy enough to understand that as a caution and you don't need to make an outright accusation that can't be proved.

 

[saxshooter]

Subtle. I like it.

 

[monza]

This is/was/will be the never-ending quest...the perfect grading system that everyone follows, without fail.

It'll never happen.

Pics help, but to truly cover all bases, one has to provide many, many close-ups. Not everyone even has the proper gear or lighting to supply pics of sufficient quality that provide absolutely clear representations of all flaws...and some flaws are very difficult if not impossible to photograph even if you *DO* have the proper gear...

Reputation is key here, and why I offer easy return options in case my descriptions are interpreted differently.

 

[saxshooter]

Fancy equipment not necessary in closeups.

I think that if the photo you upload is "larger than life", ie, at 1000 pixels the lens front element is bigger than it actually is, then you're doing pretty good.

Most digital point and shoots nowadays have a macro function (the little flower button). Take what you're selling outside on an overcast day or in some shade, fill your frame and you're good to go!

Even the crap camera on my Blackberry gets pretty close. Here's my filthy 16-35mm front element (not for sale), I just walked outside and snapped it with my BlackBerry:

 

[monza]

Some sellers post gear pics taken with an iphone...

Sure, macro on a P&S will work for most stuff, but many flaws won't be properly revealed with a simple snapshot. That's why a description is important and a return policy.

 

[D&A]

Some sellers post gear pics taken with an iphone...

Sure, macro on a P&S will work for most stuff, but many flaws won't be properly revealed with a simple snapshot. That's why a description is important and a return policy.

Yes, no doubt good pics showing detail are important for most FS items although sometimes pics themselves (depending on lighting) don't always reflect how an item looks "in hand". With some more basic less expensive items, sometimes a simple written explanation without pics (at first), can often be enough for a sale. Take for instance a hard drive or some other items where external condition may not be the most important criteria, especially if LN or new.

With that said, a near perfect reputation, strong feedbacks on this and other forums and even a long lengthy ebay record can go a long way that pics alone can't do. Then there is the written description.

As Monza and other have mentioned, a lengthy detailed description in words is important, in my opinion. Sometimes I've been accused of being too wordy and too lengthy on descriptions of some pricy items...but I feel what may or may not be seen clearly or perfectly in pictures, can surely be described in words. A pic may not fully reveal the extent of a flaw, but there is no way one can't describe it in words, especially if it can be seen.

It would be nice to have a grading system that is interpreted by everyone the same, but unfortunately subjectivity often gets in the way and sometimes a situation exists when two on on opposite ends of the spectrum in terms of how they view a particuar grade....of say E+ .

As was mentioned, put yourself in the place of the buyer when selling something, describe everything as though you were the buyer and what you would expect out of any exceptionally good transaction. Generally that will go a long way to a happy trouble free transaction for both parties and thats the way every transaction should idealy be.

Dave (D&A)

 

[peterlat]

I'm pretty new to the forum. Where's the feedback section, please?

 

[stephengilbert]

Feedback can be found by clicking the FS or WTB forum. The first two "stickies" are positive and negative feedback. You can also click on the name of the seller on the FS post and go to threads started or added to by the seller; that might lead to useful information.

 

[seakayaker]

Daniel, I do like your descriptions.

When looking at a potential purchase I do expect a description of the item and photographs for an item for sale. The exception would be someone who has sold a lot on the forum with positive feedback and is a solid contributor in the discussion threads.

If a seller tells me they have positive feedback somewhere else it just does not carry much weight for me. If someone is going to try to scam you who is to say they may not impersonate another user from anther forum. It is the internet and not everyone is your 'photography' friend.

I have avoided making inquires on items from new members simply because I do not want to get burned.

I have found items at KEH and Adorama and paid a good price but have found there descriptions of the equipment to be spot-on.

I have bought and sold several items on this forum without any issues. Common sense goes a long way in choosing to sell to a particular buyer as well as buying.

Thanks to Jack and Guy for providing the forum! Also thanks to the moderators who step in and take care of business when needed. Hopefully the B&S section of the forum stays in place.

When in doubt, do not pull the trigger on a transaction, another deal is always around the conner.