Aaargh - C1 colours in ACR/LR

[Ben Rubinstein]

There is no doubt about it, the colours in C1 are on a different planet for accuracy compared to adobe when working with RAW files. Especially with skin tones where it almost makes me cry to see the difference! I've been using ACR practically since it was first released, I use DNG Profile Editor, I have a Gretag (or whatever they call it these days) chart. I can't get skin tones to look anywhere near as easy and accurate as C1 does. Heck, even the WB tool is far more accurate in C1. The highlights recovery is also far better implemented (works globally not just on contrast). Detail is better as is (especially) the colour noise reduction tool.

But. The ACR engine and especially the tools such as the Local Adjustment Tool and Targeted Adjustment Tool are far better. Heck just being able to set the black point easily without having to describe a custom curve or apply changes to just one setting to multiple images is far easier in ACR. I'm a wedding shooter and the ability to dodge and burn in a RAW converter is too much of an advantage to give up after all these years of waiting for it!

Does anyone have any idea how I can get C1 colour in ACR? Please pretty please? Either that or I spend more time trying to get to know C1 (huge list of questions if that's what I'm doing ) and save to 16 bit TIFF, then open in ACR for dodge and burn (yeuch, will add hours to my workflow ).

 

[cmb_]

I haven't used ARC for about 3 or 4 years but when I did the colors were better if you calibrated the camera/lens. There is a tab for camera calibration in ARC. If you haven't already done so then you may want to give it a try. I never took the time to calibrate for each lens/shooting condition but came up with a generic one that got me in the ballpark but I never used it much because C1 was better - I'm not processing tons of images from big shoots, however.

 

[Ben Rubinstein]

These days you use a colour checker card and roll your own profile using the DNG Profile Editor, even with that I've changed some bits in the calibration tab, mainly in the red section, knocks out a lot of the orange. Thing is that I don't have a accurate enough colour response in difficult lighting for skin tones. Mixing sodium or fluorescent with daylight is a nightmare to process for. C1 gets it right first time everytime but it's horrible to deal with in ACR/LR to try and get accurate skin tones.

Thing is that I've tried C1 many times, for colour and detail it's incredible. For everything else it seems far more suited to a 'work with a few images and then send the TIFF to PS for further work' rather than an all in one solution like ACR/LR. As a wedding photographer bringing back hundreds of images at a time and then usually processing 4 weddings together (I work in one country and process when I get home), C1 just doesn't seem to be anywhere near as user friendly at the actual processing stage.

 

[Terry]

Why not try to search around other forums on the web for wedding photographers. There have got to be plenty of them using Canon and ACR/LR who have made presets that are working.

 

[Ben Rubinstein]

I think the main problem is that ACR/LR works by having a colour set for daylight and one for incandescent and then just averaging everything else in between. When you hit mixed lighting you just don't have a preset to work with and end up with funky skin colours. Fluorescent mixed with flash or daylight is the biggest culprit, add high iso and it's a nightmare.

I'll try asking around on wedding forums but if I know the people shooting weddings these days the typical answer is going to be 'why sweat it, just use the included profile, you must be a pixel peeping geek not a photographer, etc, etc'. I did once ask a question about getting accurate colour from ACR on the photo.net wedding forum and got creamed for it with the above nonsense.

I'm hoping Marc will chime in, he's an LR user but has the (old fashioned) taste for quality that used to define a wedding photographer. Methinks his reply is going to be that if I choose to shoot 5D's then I get what I deserve! ROTFL I have no doubt he shoots Sony's these days for a reason...

 

[Jack]

Ben, welcome to the dark side... The only way I ever got even remotely close color with ACR/LR was to build a dedicated camera profile -- actually a set of tuned adjustments -- in ACR. At the end of the day it got me about half-way to C1 color about half of the time. Now you know the second reason I sing the praises I do of C1...

 

[Ben Rubinstein]

If only the brightness slider was mid tone brightening not global. It's really screwing up my workflow that I have to hold the highlights and shadows in place seperately (using curves) and then brighten a photo. Like trying to fix brightness in ACR/LR using the exposure tool, nasty. OK perhaps if you are working on a few photos but when trying to work with 400 pics it's a nightmare.

 

[Terry]

If only the brightness slider was mid tone brightening not global. It's really screwing up my workflow that I have to hold the highlights and shadows in place seperately (using curves) and then brighten a photo. Like trying to fix brightness in ACR/LR using the exposure tool, nasty. OK perhaps if you are working on a few photos but when trying to work with 400 pics it's a nightmare.

Ben,
Have you worked with the vibrance slider. Vibrance works on the midtones and saturation but does not mess around with skin tones.

http://www.adobe.com/designcenter/lightroom/articles/lir1am_vibrance.html

I also think Martin Evening has done some work here but I can't link to his site from my work computer.

 

[Ben Rubinstein]

Not understanding, please excuse me,

Vibrance in ACR/LR works as a saturation tool which is supposed to not effect skin tones (works some of the time). It isn't an exposure tool.

As I said the exposure/brighness/shadows tools in ACR are perfect for the job they do. You set your black point with shadows. You set your white point with the exposure tool (if you need to recover whites). You then do the mid point with the brighness tool but unlike in Levels, it does also work together with the shadows/highlights to preserve contrast. Works perfectly and I love it.

In C1 both the exposure and brightness tool seem to be global. Want to brighten a face? You're going to get the dress too bright. Oh and the grooms tux will be too bright as well. The highlight tool seems to be a simple curves adjusment, it affects midtones far too easily and it shouldn't. You can anchor the black and white point (ish) using levels or curves instead but that makes it a nightmare to work quickly through multiple images or even to have a default value to be applied to hundreds of images.

 

[dougpeterson]

Ben,

We should really talk (or you could take our screen-sharing based online training).

I shoot a lot of weddings and process only in Capture One with further retouching (when paid for and warranted - usually only on the formals) in PS as needed (from 16 bitt TIFFs).

In my strong opinion, C1 is FASTER at editing, adjusting, and processing 200-400 shot weddings than either Aperture or LightRoom (which I maintain knowledge of for my job here as Head of Tech Services). It's only a nice bonus that the images usually have better grain, detail, and color than when using LR or Aperture.

Of course to get to that level you need to have a good workflow established, know all the tricks/tips/shortcuts, and learn ways to create and apply presets.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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[Jack]

If only the brightness slider was mid tone brightening not global. It's really screwing up my workflow that I have to hold the highlights and shadows in place seperately (using curves) and then brighten a photo. Like trying to fix brightness in ACR/LR using the exposure tool, nasty. OK perhaps if you are working on a few photos but when trying to work with 400 pics it's a nightmare.

Try using the levels tool and move the midpoint slider left. Obviously this is a gamma adjustment, but it works wonders in C1 since we usually only need a slight bump -- plus this particular adjustment in C1 enhances/emulates a more film-like response curve

Basic C1 workflow, FWIW:

Camera Profile, response curve, Color balance;
Then exposure to desired white point or clip -- I usually shoot for 245 - 250 max;
Shadow and/or highlight as needed to balance both;
Secret optional but not essential adjustment step 1 (We do share it at the workshops);
Then levels to adjust BLACK point;
Then levels to adjust midpoint;
Optional Step 2;
Color editor if needed;
THEN go back and tweak exposure slightly and/or adjust global contrast and brightness if needed (and usually they are not unless the original had extreme flat or contrasty lighting).

Cheers,

 

[dougpeterson]

In C1 both the exposure and brightness tool seem to be global. Want to brighten a face? You're going to get the dress too bright. Oh and the grooms tux will be too bright as well. The highlight tool seems to be a simple curves adjusment, it affects midtones far too easily and it shouldn't. You can anchor the black and white point (ish) using levels or curves instead but that makes it a nightmare to work quickly through multiple images or even to have a default value to be applied to hundreds of images.

In C1 the best way to accomplish this would be to create a Color Editor preset to raise the luminance and slightly lower the saturation of skin tones. Creating a second and third preset for more aggressive iterations (maybe the most aggressive would include a curve-up for the upper midtones) wouldn't hurt given your needs. Then save that as a style and make sure styles are included in your Quick Tab and voila - it will take you only 2-3 seconds to preview and then apply these changes as a group to any individual image and less than a second each to jump through similar images and apply the same adjustments to them (e.g. for 5 similar-light shots in a row of the cake cutting).

Really - it's very very fast - once you learn the tricks.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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[Ben Rubinstein]

Thanks Jack, I've tried it and yes it does work. Problem is that the blackpoint on an full length portrait and a close up is going to be different as the histo is different. I can set the same blackpoint and brightness in ACR for a whole group of portraits shot in the studio and they will all be identical, so far that isn't the case with C1.

BTW, I'm working on DNG files, when I work with the ICC profile 'neutral' the colour is fine. When I apply the 5D profile the colours go crazy. They don't if I use that profile on a CR2 file. Any reason why?

 

[TRSmith]

I haven't anything of a technical or step-by-step nature to contribute, however, I find that my own tendency to stick with a longish-term and hard won workflow often works against me. This is especially the case (for me) with C1. I absolutely love it and now use it to open all my various camera's RAW files. But only as a first step before refining it in PS. I can understand why this could be a problem for a commercial shooter like a wedding photographer.

My sense is that there's a tremendous amount of power and convenience under the hood of C1 that I haven't taken the time to learn. It almost seems as if I've spent a lot of time becoming comfortable with digital in general (as opposed to film) and have reached a point of saturation. My stuff looks ok and I know what I have to do. So I avoid taking on new learning curves. Even when I know that I could be better and faster by biting the bullet and taking a tutorial or workshop.

Speaking strictly for myself, I'm beginning to think that I make my own barriers sometimes and that can lead to frustration. Whether something similar is happening to you, I can't say.

 

[Jack]

Thanks Jack, I've tried it and yes it does work. Problem is that the blackpoint on an full length portrait and a close up is going to be different as the histo is different. I can set the same blackpoint and brightness in ACR for a whole group of portraits shot in the studio and they will all be identical, so far that isn't the case with C1.

BTW, I'm working on DNG files, when I work with the ICC profile 'neutral' the colour is fine. When I apply the 5D profile the colours go crazy. They don't if I use that profile on a CR2 file. Any reason why?

1) If you use the levels slider to set a black point -- say to 4 -- and apply it, then ALL of your images will in fact have 4 as their black point, so yes that part works. However, while the midpoint slider will adjust gama identically across all selected images, it will affect each image differently depending on its individual histo spread. You can however use the top of the levels adjustment instead of the exposure slider to set a fixed white point for all images and just like the black, it will be the same for all selected images. Moreover, depending on which end of the levels slider you grab and adjust, you can change input or output levels or BOTH to the same setting for all selected images.

2) DNG coding is supposed to be standardized by Adobe, but from all the reports I have read it isn't really -- or at least fully. Apparently Adobe has some secret color sauce codes they keep secret for their converters and it does not transfer out in the generic DNG but remains readable by Adobe...

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Cough Cough. workshop workshop. Seriously outside of coming and really learning this stuff hands on than sign up for one of Dougs web based training. Ben you are excused too many miles . Tim your on the hook bud. LOL

 

[TRSmith]

Cough Cough. workshop workshop.... Tim your on the hook bud. LOL

It's on my list, honest! Maybe I'm secretly hoping you'll pick a location in the East. There's some cool stuff out this way too!

 

[Ben Rubinstein]

To be honest folks I still can't batch 50 images all shot under the same studio lights to look exactly the same, blackpoint, mid levels and white point, not anywhere near as easily as in ACR. I also do not have the ability to do dodge and burn on RAW images and for this wedding shooter that is a huge disadvantage. I'm going to keep C1 for the difficult images, those high iso mixed lighting shots that ACR just won't get right. For the main though I'm sticking to streamlined and easy (where I don't have to pay to learn the software, never had to pay to find the minefield of information that taught me Bridge/ACR/LR). Sorry.

 

[dougpeterson]

For the main though I'm sticking to streamlined and easy (where I don't have to pay to learn the software, never had to pay to find the minefield of information that taught me Bridge/ACR/LR). Sorry.

Obviously I have a very selfish vested interest here, but I never understood why so many photographers will pay thousands for lenses, tens of thousands for cameras, dozens of thousands for a college degree, hundreds of thousands to buy a studio, not to mention hundreds to BUY the software but then baulk at $100 for training on software to get the most out of it. Nearly everyone who takes the classes rave about the amount of time and headaches it saves them.

O well. :deadhorse: This isn't the time or place and my words here can't come across as anything but selfish.

Do peruse all of the free info we post on our Tips section. Also, read through the manual (Help > Capture One Help), which gets better with every version.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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Phase One, Leaf, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 *| *Cell: 740.707.2183
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[Bob]

It's on my list, honest! Maybe I'm secretly hoping you'll pick a location in the East. There's some cool stuff out this way too!

Mid-winter lighthouses
-bob