The Adobe Cloud Furor - Visual Science Lab - Kirk Tuck
The Adobe Cloud Furor - Visual Science Lab - Kirk Tuck
Sorry, but Mr. Tuck is completely missing the point. He claims that Adobe is giving you a choice, when in fact, it's just the opposite. You have no choice and you have to agree to the most odious terms and conditions that I've ever seen. You do not have a choice in that. He's being naive and never once mentions that part of it. He also doesn't seem to understand that many of us simply HAVE to use Adobe products to do the work we do. There simply aren't qualifying competing products available. While some casual users might be able to sub out third rate apps and come up with usable images, most of the rest of us can't. Tuck is doing the creative community a disservice and undermines his own credibility with his arguments, such as they are.
"odious" ... Methinks there is way too much emotion involved in your response.
I don't use any Creative Suite apps enough to argue one way or another. I have PSCS5 and hardly use it. If I used it enough, twenty bucks a month seems cheap, but what do I know? I don't care enough to work myself into a lather over it.
I use Lightroom extensively, and it would easily be worth $20/month for me. It saves me tens times that per month. If they go CC with it, I'll pay the tithe. Or find some other option if I find it too odious.
I doubt most people ever read the Creative Suite EULA prior to all this palaver.
I think the main issue is with PS stand alone users ... the small fry folks as opposed to the businesses that use the full suite and require upgrades as they become available.
Why We All MUST Fight Adobe And Stop The Creative Cloud!!! | Damn Ugly Photography
Was using Lightroom and Photoshop but am moving to Capture One Pro 7 for my digital needs. Am also looking for an alternative retouching software - if there is any, let me know.
Capture One Pro 7 60 day trial already installed on my Mac and I already love it. Am looking for a great deal to buy it on-line. If you know of any, let me know. I think Phase One should do a marketing proposal to all Lightroom converts, now is the right time to sell Capture One
Keeping film photography and printing alive!
Membership plans: Pricing, upgrades, and subscriptions | Adobe Creative Cloud
All users have always been "captive" to Adobe's pricing, just like all buyers of anything are "captive" to whomever-is-selling's price. If you're dependent upon something, you pay the ticket and incorporate it as part of your cost of doing business. Not everyone buys the latest Leica or Alpa camera every year either. If you want one, you pay the price.
There's plenty of competition in the marketplace. Just because all'y'all want the best doesn't mean you have some illusory right to get it cheap or free.
I have no idea if you are a working photographer but you talk about "you pay the ticket and incorporate it as part of your cost of doing business" as if these costs mean nothing. How you consider this to be a better option is beyond me.
In effect, you are paying up front for future PS developments and added functionality which you may or may not want or need. This added future functionality is provided at their whim ... so, as with any product, where you have a captive market, there is less sales incentive to improve the product. In contrast, there was an incentive to improve PS version-to-version to get people to pay for something they want. It is called consumer choice ... build a better mouse trap and people will come.
It is naive to think Adobe is some paragon of corporate virtue that will strive forward without the carrot at the end of the stick like every other product or service.
To use your camera analogy ... Canon comes out with a 5D MK-IV, but now you have to subscribe to the Canon Cloud to get any future firmware advancements ... if you do not subscribe, not only do you not get the firmware advancements, the satellite receiver in the camera activates, and your camera stops working. So you learn to live with the 5D MK-III while Canon still supports it ...
This smells like a product at the end of its useful advancement cycle, a creatively bankrupt idea that will only last until someone realizes there is money to be made by lighting a fire under Adobe's bum with some real competition ... bet the cloud subscription evaporates the minute some young group of geeks sees visions of Mansions and Maseratis dancing in their heads
In the meantime, the hoi polloi will just have to plod along, and hope PS6 that they already paid for lasts through future OS changes and a few new camera iterations.
Godfrey - Have you actually read those terms and condtions? If so and you find them acceptable, then go ahead and join the CC. I can't see how anyone with have a brain in the creative field could possibly find them palatable in the least. As for alternatives to Ps and InDesign, there are none at the moment, so those of us who are professional users are literally given no choice in the matter, as we have to stay current in order to service our clients.
CaptureOne, as great as it is, and I use it daily, is no replacement for Photoshop and was never intended to be. There is nothing available that comes close and Adobe knows that. That they have us over a barrel and are turning the screws shows their customer base no respect. That once you start subscribing you can never stop if you want to keep using the software is insane. But I'm sure the accountants at Adobe are loving every minute of this.
Adobe has gone from one of the best tech companies in the mid nineties, to the bottom of the barrel today. Maybe even lower than Corel, if that was even possible.
And can you even trust them at all. When they started the CC last year they said that Ps would be available both with the traditional license and through the CC, but you can see how long that lasted. Can LR really be that far behind?
I'm not working photography as a business these days. I did in the past. The costs of acquiring and managing software upgrades was part of my business accounting. Unlike some folks, I *always* keep my software up to date: I believe that software and computers are depreciating assets that must be renewed from time to time. Purchasing Photoshop CC only would cost me $240/year*on the lease program. I seem to recall that the going rate for Photoshop CS5 was $600, plus or minus, and every 18 months I'd be up for another $180 upgrade fee.
From that perspective, over two years use, Photoshop CC would save my business $300. And that $240/year fee is literally nothing in the context of running a successful business. Necessary memberships in professional associations cost me as much or more, and return far less per dollar paid, and similarly have no residual value after membership lapses.
But as I said before, I don't use PS enough to warrant an upgrade from PSCS5, and I don't see myself needing it in the foreseeable future, so I really don't care enough to get into a debate.
For all those who have made Photoshop CS an essential component of their business and now don't like the fact, well, who's to blame for that? Adobe for making an outstanding product?
I use Lightroom today. If it became a burden to me to pay the Adobe Ogre for it, I could switch to something else in half an hour. All my finished work is properly exported and archived in standards based software, all my unprocessed images have plenty of options for processing available.
I have always kept my image processing options open. Even when I was running the business.
In all the years I've had a fully paid for licence of PS I've only ever known Adobe add camera support to ACR or fix stuff that was broken on release so their proven track record of continually adding new features looks pretty dubious under the CC umbrella.
However, if CC works for you then thats great.
It isn't just a matter of keeping processing software up to date with the latest, greatest version of PS. In past, if someone had no need for functionality beyond the version of PS they had ... (like how you are now sticking with PSCS5) ... newer versions of Adobe Camera Raw that allows processing of newer digital camera RAW files were made available. Now, you will not be able to install ACR7 for PS5, or any other future version of ACR that includes RAW compatibility with current or future new digital cameras ... or synergy with Adobe Lightroom using current or future versions of ACR.
Adobe states that the new versions of ACR WILL be made available to users of PSCS6 because they still sell PSCS6. in fact I did install ACR7, to insure PSCS6 compatibility with Lightroom 4.4 using ACR7. However, the handwriting is on the wall. When Adobe discontinues PSCS6, I seriously doubt they will continue support of it with future versions of ACR. You will be forced to the Cloud subscription, and the latest, greatest version of PSCS, whether you want it or not.
BTW, the $20 subscription for one desktop application, like PSCS, is $20, but requires a one year commitment (it is not clear what the cost is for a month-to-month plan, or wether it can be used on more than one computer). This means you are paying $240 a year for a pig-in-the-poke, rather than paying for functionality Adobe presets to you, and you then you decide if is worth the price. The price of PS upgrades was not usually an annual expense, but more like $199 every 18 months to 2 years. In effect, Adobe has more than doubled the price of PS from $199 to $480.
Yes, Adobe has made an outstanding product which people paid for ... it was the principle of make something good and continue improving it and people will pay for it. Because of that capitalistic retail process, and their consumer's loyalty, Adobe now wants you to pay for it sight-unseen. They have removed "choice" from the equation.
Frankly, this is getting close to being a software version of a monopoly.
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Petition to Adobe:
The only petition Adobe will recognize is falling revenue. I intend to do my part.
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What is Adobe CC? To me it seems nice you can be sitting in a cafe and retouches your images, plus right after the shot with your client standing over your shoulder asking to do all the corrections on a tablet. Now you really look professional.
Really, why have I bother to buy and set-up dual monitor?
I use LR 4 for importing, managing, key wording and the images. Photoshop CS6 to correct and retouching when needed.
Maybe Adobe thinks that forcing people to work under their terms and condition will provide a new income source, Well I will be looking at others and find some other way of working without being hook and depended on them.
Not feeling too good the past couple days has left me with little to do other than surf the web in search of answers. I've read hundreds of posts which is slightly 55-45 (very unofficial on my part) against joining the cloud. I did a very unofficial tabulation of those who were violently against what Adobe has done and those who have joined who seemed to offer rational reasons why they did it.
To be true no one like change. I have a hard time at times accepting change. However change can be in some cases a good thing. In the end it's a very subjective thing that only the actual person making/accepting the change can offer.
I've been using Photoshop since about version 2 many many years ago. I remember a friend of mine who had bought the program offering me a chance to try it free (okay it was a bootleg copy). I remember I felt like a deer caught in the headlights. Then shortly afterwards I fully embraced it and bought a copy for myself. Chance can hurt at times.
Fast-forward a decade or two. Last year I spent close to $500 to upgrade to CS6 and Pro Show Producer. I had for several years thought of buying into the entire suite however the price was just too tight.
Fast-forward to yesterday. I logged onto my Adobe account and found that since I had a registered copy of CS6 I was eligible to join the Cloud at $19.99 per month (first 12-months) and enjoy the entire cloud. (Just so that you know, Adobe is also offering this same price to any NAPP members).
So I joined. The first thing I noticed is that I downloaded the latest upgrade directly to my computer for both CS6 and Premier Pro. Other thing I noticed was a program that will save me countless steps (and one I was thinking about buying) Adobe Acrobat. So last year I spent $473.00 in upgrades while this next year will cost me $261.72 ($19.99/mo plus $1.82/mo tax). I realize and fully expect the next 12-months will increase, however I will also have 19-products to pick and choose from that will help me grow.
Choosing the Cloud was what I feel a good business decision as Adobe will never reverse their decision and I'm not going to cut off my nose to spite my face. There's more to the decision and I just hit the highlights.
In short I feel it was the logical thing to do for me.
I also don't worry about PSD files as all my files are either the original RAW or saved as Tiff.
Don - Did you read and understand the new terms and conditions that go along with your new "bargain" cloud subscription?
Yes I did and again it was a decision based on what I felt was best for me. I see this very quickly becoming a very heated/spirited debate on both sides and therefore I've decided not to participate other than to post my thoughts regarding my decision to join. Others should be free to make their decision based on their own rational (and to a point subjective) observations/feelings/investigations. In the end what's good for one person might not be good for another. I offer no defense to my action other than after what I feel was due diligence it was best for me and fit into my business plan.
How can anyone in any business living in the US think $50 a month for all that software and support is too expensive? My last apartment in Miami, my cable bill was $250 a month!
As stated, some can withstand the price and see it as a value ... however, a lot of smaller businesses and freelancers (photo and graphics) are working for less and less and increases in expenses just makes it even less.
Previously, Adobe came out with a new version about every 18 months. If you thought the new features were valuable, you upgraded. They kept coming out with new features to encourage upgrading.
Now they will have, for the most part, a captive audience. The incentive to come out with new version seems greatly reduced. I know if I had a captive audience complasincy would get to me and sooner or later I would be cutting back on how I conduct business. No need to bend over backwards if all my clients are locked in. Why would Adobe continue to develop Photoshop as much? I would think they use their assets to develop other products to find new markets, not one they have on subscription.
I hate the CC concept. It pushes all of my angry buttons and I feel betrayed by a company that I have been buying from for many, many years. Since I'm a graphic designer, my livelihood depends on an almost daily use of Adobe Illustrator, InDesign, and Photoshop. I own CS6 and will hang on as long as I possibly can before bowing to the inevitable in order to maintain my business and compete. I don't look forward to that day and secretly hope something happens in between.
If they had made the pricing more affordable, so that it actually saved me a bit of money (vs. the total upgrade cycle of 18 months to 2 years) I would feel better about it. But they chose to stick it to users in a pricing decision that feels a lot like "take it or leave it and by the way, s*rew you."
Photoshop was always subscription. It is just now you will just pay for it monthly. Yes, the old license was permanent, but how many people actually are using a computer and an operating system that could run Photoshop V.1?
I wonder how many people spend more monthly for their smart phones?
I wonder how much of this has to do with whether it is a better system, or whether people don't like being told what to do? As long as I do not have to keep my data or do my processing in the Cloud, I am not that much bothered by it. There was no guarantee that with the current CS that the prices would stay the same and so we actually do not know if this is more expensive.
Not "told" ... "forced" ... big difference.
If it were such a viable choice, then why didn't Adobe allow an actual choice? Either buy the right to permanently use every 18 months to 2 years like usual, or go to the cloud on a monthly basis. Most small business, freelancers, independent photographers and advanced amateurs know the answer to that don't they?
Choice means you determine whether the upgrades are worth it or not ... with this deal it is take it or leave it ... literally. If you do not think the future enhancements are worth the relentless monthly payments you can leave the cloud and have nothing. How's nothing sound to you?
The PS v1 argument has nothing to do with this. Of course people upgraded ... but they didn't have to on someone else's schedule ... they could do it when it was worth it to them, even if it was 4 years later instead of 2 years. Now you can't do that.
So, don't use Photoshop. No one is forcing you to use that program...
Actually, the PS V1 argument is germane. There is no such thing as a "permanent" license, at least not if you actually use the software. You were simply subscribing. Now, you simply pay by month. For small outfits, that could be much easier--easier to pony up a small chunk of money every month, than a whole bunch every year and a half or so. For the amateur, the cost is questionable. For people earning money from this, if $50 per month is going to tank your business, then don't blame Adobe, there is some else wrong.
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There are no real alternatives to Photoshop on the market. None.
And I can't help but think in antitrust type terms that this is what happens when you have a monopoly and no true competition. Adobe can dictate the terms and you can either take it or leave it.
As far as I can tell, the Photoshop only CC would be "only 9.95" per month, but absent any competition or incentive to keep the same pricing, I would expect this monthly "rental" to increase later once that noose is placed around the users neck. The program really isn't in the "cloud," just the licensing feature of the program which mandates you connecting to the internet once a month to make sure you've paid your fees.
I don't see any viable alternatives (other than dragging my feet and delaying as long as possible). CS6 works for now, but eventually will be a dead-end.
My dream would be for the folks in Denmark (yeah those bright C1Pro guys) to come up with a seamless alternative to Photoshop, with just the major feature-sets for pro-photographers. (big argument is which features).
Has anyone here tried to replace Photoshop with Corel PaintShop Pro X5 Ultimate ?
Some say that Lightroom or Capture One Pro + Corel PaintShop Pro X5 Ultimate is all you need as a photographer ?
The Ultimate Photo Editor - Corel PaintShop Pro X5 Ultimate
Personally I can easily do with just one of the RAW converters, but that's just me.
Everyone is being forced into this because there is no alternative. If and when there is an alternative, then you can chuck decades of learning and experience and start over.
$50 here, $50 there ... in this economy, pretty soon you are out of business. However, according to you, we should all just lay down and take it because $50 a month isn't all that much. Shrinking revenue for paying photographic work is a fact. Relentless increases in expenses these days is like being nibbled to death by ducks.
Besides, IMO, PS is a bankrupt software ... Adobe has bloated it with applications related to the Creative Suite and added only a few nifty photo related tools that just aren't worth what they used to ask every two years. Personally, I do not feel PS6 was worth it, but bought it because it'll support ACR for awhile. By forcing the Cloud down everyone's throat they can milk PS ... while pushing the other CS applications forward. Adobe is no one's friend, they are big business with the ethics of wall street and banks.
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There has been a huge amount of discussion about this on The Digital Wedding Forum ... one of the biggest and best on the web. For obvious reasons, this is NOT a popular move on Adobe's part.
I made some suggestions in a post I included there that was received well. It offers up an alternative that I really wish Adobe would consider.
Here's a different take on this. My former career was in advertising. Virtually every ad agency creative department is Mac based and uses Adobe Creative Suite software. Same for design houses, web design, major retouching studios, large photo commercial studios, many motion editing companies, etc.
For the most part, purchase, payment and maintenance of software is not the purview of that end user (they just ask for it, but do not make the final decision, although they usually get what they want). As such, it is strictly a cost of doing business amongst many, that doesn't affect the end user's paycheck. I seriously doubt there will be any significant blow back from this move from the above clients, except maybe some grumbling from mid-level accounting who have to implement the CC subscription and keep it active.
That is primarily regarding the Creative Suite.
More and more, Photoshop has become integrated into the CS with many added features that serve a broad base of applications found in the CS ... a lot of which aren't needed or relevant to those who, for example, use it as plug-in ("Open In") in conjunction with Lightroom ... especially photographers.
In many cases, the blow back happening here and elsewhere is about a PS product that has some features vital to photographers, but many they do not want or need. In past, PS made major advancements for photographic applications, but in recent years less so. I think many (including me) feel any further advancements in PS will have limited (a couple of cool tools) or no meaning to photographic work, but WILL further the CS integration and add features relevant to the use of the broad base CS applications.
So, the $20 for PS-CC subscription alone seems overpriced compared to the CS-CC price of $50 for the whole Suite.
Lightroom is a great product for the photographer, and has come a long way. However, it needs PS to be a complete program for many, if not most photographers. Lightroom is still far behind PS in the application of many photographic needs, or the LR tools are less effective compared to their PS counterparts.
Which leads to two thoughts beyond those in the poll, or wishing for a lower price for the PS-CC:
Increase the functionality of LR by 1) improving the functions of certain LR tools to be the equal of those in PS (cloning tools for example) 2) adding the more important tools found in PS that photographers want and need (layering, content aware adjustments, etc.)
Strip PS of non- essential features leaving only those with a high level of relevancy to photographers, and offer it as a plug-in "open In" for LR. Really, how hard would that be for Adobe? IMO, this is where other software makers will concentrate their efforts (like OnOne who recently said as much). Adobe could beat them to the punch with their own LR stand alone plug-in.
Anyone needing the functionality of the CS, (like In Design), then can opt for the CC subscription. Those primarily engaged in photography could purchase their photo oriented PS plug-in along with LR.
I don't feel the issue with the CC service has anything to do with owning the licence, the monthly cost or if I think its fair but the fact that if after one month or 15 years I decide I don't want/no longer need/can't afford the subscription I no longer have access to my files any longer. In my eyes, that makes my decision to not question Adobes direction or evaluate the money I'll kindly be handing to Adobe over the years to be a completely stupid decision.
Being locked out of software without payment is a important aspect that every company, large or small needs to seriously think about. Likening this to a mobile contract is ridiculous as renting the phone I make a call on today has nothing to do with the phone I make a call on tomorrow.
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Apparently Adobe is concerned about the acceptance (or lack of) of CC. Amoung the many questions were several about whether you like the idea of paying monthly fees to use CC.
My link to the survey only worked once so there's no point in sharing that but this is the content of the email they sent me to take the survey:
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I perhaps could live Photoshop CC, but what I certainly will not do is pay more than US customers. I'm not talking about a little more it's 15EUR in the US let's say with tax it's 17,5.... In Germany it's 24,5EUR....
Adobe go to hell, I will use PS CS6 until everything goes down....
Lightroom 5 released today.
Buy it before they change their minds...
In concept The Cloud seems like a wonderful, convenient solution. In principal, I would strongly disagree.
As we go through life, we all compile "data." Whether it be our bank statements, photo files from our life's work, to a song you would like to listen to in the car. That data needs to be stored somewhere. As the world (or corporate world) tries to push us into The Cloud as personal storage (connecting a drive to a computer) will become obsolete.
As we continue to go through life, we will eventually be forced to "rent our lives back" from The Cloud in order to gain access to enjoy it/ make our living off of it/ or whatever else we wish to do as we no longer control the storage of our data.
No thank you. I prefer to own/manage my personal data.
Last edited by GregMO; 10th June 2013 at 19:12.
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Capture one just dropped their prices by 20% on Pro7 and 50% on Express 7
Buy professional imaging software from Phase One
After several month this thread has been not touched, I would like to ask those who have accepted the cloud subscription, how it has worked for them until now and if they would do it again.
Works well for me.
Given the various subscription options that have expanded, presumably after folks complained, there might be something acceptable to you.
Works great for me, and is a moneysaver too, since I use very many Adobe products and rely on being able to open work from others which is often done with the latest release.
I don't care what gear I have.
Things I sell: http://www.shutterstock.com/sets/413...html?rid=61105
I have still held off. My biggest worry is the loss of access to files down the line if I ever stop the subscription and lose the version I was working with. It sounds like subscribe for life now or risk loss of file access later.
If I could find a way to keep whatever the last version I had was, I would reconsider, but I don't want to try open files I made in CC PS12 or so in CS6.
What if the price goes up a lot after a couple of years? I think I would feel a bit trapped into keeping up payments forever. Maybe the model would be to wait for a few new features to be introduced that will not be interpretable in CS6, then bump the cost again.
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This is worth a a look as an alternative to adobe... Perfect Photo Suite 8 Public Beta - onOne Software
I've written to them about this before, trying to use version 7...they know about the problem...i was hoping they'd address it in V8...no luck...
it's fine on the macbook monitor, normal colors,...
I finally signed up for the photography version, where they charge 9.99/month for the first year if you bought CS6. It comes with CC and Lightroom 5 (which I already had bought). I would not have done so, but for the gun held to my head -- sign up before the end of the year, or you need to pay for the single version at double the price, as well as separate upgrades for lightroom. At this point, I have not played with any of the features other than the new image enlargement tools. Basically, it just looks like they enlarge and sharpen...it does not appear better. I was doing a print for a client today, and I just used standard lightroom up-rezzing...fewer halos. Her prints were already a bit oversharpened, however, so it might do better with a more suitable image.
The integration seems to be working well, however. The CC applet works pretty well (just needed to log in on my other computer to download CC after I updated. It did that completely seemlessly). I have not done anything with CC or the cloud yet.
I can see the cloud storage being very useful in the future, however. Fiber based internet is new here, and not available everywhere. My home internet is cable and very very fast and inexpensive...100mb up and down. At work, however, they have not laid fiber lines, so it is only 12mb down/1mb up. 1mb up is simply too slow to upload any files to cloud storage...at least no the film scans and high MP files I work with. If I can get a decent upload speed at work, then it would be nice, as I could easily transfer files between home and work.
Of course, dropbox could do this too, but 20gb as part of the subscription is nice. As it is, 10 bucks a month seems quite fair to me, except for the draconian, "once you stop paying, we take it all away from you."
Additionally, I want to make a special shout out to Giovanni, the rudest and most condescending customer service representative I have ever spoken to. I called Adobe to ask a bit about the terms and conditions, and this guy was horrible! He was incredibly defensive, saying things like, "Well, clearly you are not interested in this offer...", and at one point he flat out interrupted me saying with a very sarcastic tone, "Is there anything else I can help you with today?" I was completely civil and non-combative, I just wanted to know what Adobe's obligations were. For example, they have said, "9.99 is not an introductory price, it is the price for people who subscribe before Dec 31st, 2013", but in the T&C, it says that that price is just for the first year, after which it will be automatically renewed at the current price. So basically, it will auto-renew at whatever price they decide. He confirmed this, but was incredibly unpleasant about it, acting as though they were doing me some great favor and I was a jerk not to trust them not to raise the price etc.
I am glad it was not in person, as I might have done something unpleasant back.
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