Official USA Pricing for Leica S2

[thomas]

Perhaps Leica doesn't care about market share? Not every company does.

Supposedly they target to sell 1000 units per year. I think even this will be hard (as my reading is 1000 every year by average... until the "S3" comes out).

Jack: the emotions in the discussion come from the high expectations and I'm sure as well to a certain degree from the fear that another traditional camera maker (actually the camera maker) might be going into the wrong direction.
True, there is much negativity about the S2 online. But too, there is much overdrawn positivity...

IMO the MF market is losing a big part of its former user base to Nikon and Canon and this applies especially the photographers that once went for the faster 1.3 crop backs with 18 + 31MP and microlenses (many in a time when DSLRs offered 10 and 14MP or so and far less features than today and far worse ISO than today). In this particular situation Leica comes with a semi-MF camera with more resolution and maybe a better AF than other MFD systems (but certainly not better than Nikon) but with far less features than DLSRs ... and at a price not in the middle of high end 35mm DLSRs and MFD but on the level on MFD (and above).
So at this point I just can't imagine that the camera will sell good enough in the long run.

 

[carstenw]

Leica cannot manufacture fast enough to want large market share. There is and always was a lot of craftsmanship in Leica cameras.

Anyway, it is easy to say that Phase just needs this and that to knock the S2 out, but here are three things needed, two of which Phase has promised and never delivered, and third of which has been claimed to be impossible. Maybe the S2 will give them enough incentive to finally get off their *** and deliver:

- large, bright, high-res screen
- grip
- leaf shutter lenses

Any one of those is a strong reason to consider the S2. All three together make a strong reason not to buy Phase, if you are in the situation of needing them, like doing portraits on location with lighting, for example.

 

[carstenw]

It simply is overpriced , not outrage , no sour grapes and if it was 24k with a 70mm already attached to it than it maybe in my hands but Leica slammed the door in the face of anyone that wants to switch and let's not even begin to talk of the loss of selling my used system.

Well, let's say that your financiers slammed that door in your face, the prices in Europe are quite reasonable for what you get. In a couple of years the economy and the Dollar will have recovered, and you can reconsider it.

 

[jonoslack]

I actually think technical it will be fine coming out of the gate. It still has all the backend stuff to solve which as we all agree will take time to get service, parts, acessories and all the back end stuff to come alive. They know no one is going to put up with the m8 stuff. The Dmr was actually better but that was mostly Imacon at the time. But my guess it should be okay, still not crazy about LR though and tethering but here iam bias towards C1 and no secret about that

Sounds like it'll work okay with C1 as well - the beauty of DNG.

 

[Paratom]

interesting how much discussion a preannouncement of a price can produce.

I cant help but for some reason the S2 seems to draw quit some attraction and emotion. thats good imo.

 

[jonoslack]

Hi Stephen

Jono,

You're starting to look like a badminton player: whatever shots come in at the S2, you hit them right back. I guess all those posts about tripods and heads and mirror slap were just chin wagging. Is there anything at all that disappoints you about the S2?

erm . . . two things.

1. I don't want one (really wouldn't suit my style)
2. I can't afford one

I agree that if it is easier to use than any camera yet made, and produces better files than have ever been seen, and works without ever failing, etc., that people will buy it, but gee, aren't there a few unknowns right now?

Steve

Oh yes - lots of unknowns . . . but it seems to me that 'if it does what it says it does' then it's probably going to sell enough to satisfy Leica.
I've always said that it had to be good . . . . . having said that, looking at other 'premium' products it appears that in some cases pretty and expensive is enough, and it certainly is pretty and expensive.

 

[dougpeterson]

Sounds like it'll work okay with C1 as well - the beauty of DNG.

DNG is a great idea in theory. The problem is that just being compatible at a basic level doesn't mean that the processing is tweaked for best results.

Nothing can replace the many hundreds of man hours that go into tweaking the processing algorithms, noise profiles, color profiles, and other aspects of raw conversion to each specific camera. There are Image Processing PHDs at Phase One who spend the majority of their time doing just this.

Practical examples:
-Between Capture One 3.7 and Capture One 4 there was at least a half stop gain in the relative appearance of noise at various ISOs for Phase backs as well as a half stop gain in dynamic range.
-Between 4.6 and 4.8.1 the usable long exposure on a P65+ was doubled (software processing changes only). These sorts of normally insignificant boosts in IQ are the very thing which Leica is claiming to be after; it's a strange thing to bring such a camera to market without a dedicated raw processor.

Will Phase do any camera specific tweaking for the S2? I don't know. It's well known that the companies had a bit of a falling out. I'm sure that even without tweaking the processing will be "good enough" but this is hardly a camera being marketed as having any component which is just "good enough".

I've also seen camera specific bugs with DNG (e.g. Phase DNGs in early versions of Aperture had pink highlights).

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
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[Hank Graber]

I'd put it this way. We are not now in an economic climate for quality at any price. What is needed is good enough for my application at the right price. Clients don't pay for what they can't use so photographers who want to stay solvent better match equipment purchases to what clients are actually paying for.

Leica's new owners said that they wanted to put Leica back into the photographic mainstream, as it was back in the day of the M3 but I don't yet see a Leica product that will do that in any pro market, 35 or MF. They do have the DRF market sown up though (no competitors) .

The S system on paper sounded very attractive but in a rapidly shrinking MF market that already has 2 players with extensive support systems and products that produce very high quality in a range of prices from almost 35mm level pricing up to something less then where Leica's pricing starts I don't see where the S system fits in.

Hell, I just read they are about to foreclose on Annie Liebowitz's houses. Looks like she's broke. If she can't afford a Leica I sure can't.

 

[Nick-T]

DNG is a great idea in theory. The problem is that just being compatible at a basic level doesn't mean that the processing is tweaked for best results.

I'm with Doug on this. Hasselblad experimented with in-camera DNG but the quality just wasn't right. Why spend a great deal of money on what will no doubt be a very well engineered camera and then dumb down the results by converting to DNG.

I'm sorry but I just don't see a bright future for the S2 beyond collectors, it's one thing to make a camera but getting a good file out of it is where it gets really complicated.

Nick-T

 

[thomas]

-Between Capture One 3.7 and Capture One 4 there was at least a half stop gain in the relative appearance of noise at various ISOs for Phase backs as well as a half stop gain in dynamic range.

Doug, for all backs or just the plus series?

 

[thomas]

it's one thing to make a camera but getting a good file out of it is where it gets really complicated.

I wonder what the Histogram of the camera will show then? The sRGB or AdobeRGB or ECI-RGB processed JPG Histogram? :shocked:

 

[jonoslack]

DNG is a great idea in theory. The problem is that just being compatible at a basic level doesn't mean that the processing is tweaked for best results.

Of course not - but it's better than proprietary files which are ONLY supported for companies which are willing to tweak

Nothing can replace the many hundreds of man hours that go into tweaking the processing algorithms, noise profiles, color profiles, and other aspects of raw conversion to each specific camera. There are Image Processing PHDs at Phase One who spend the majority of their time doing just this.

It seems to me that the thousands of man hours which have gone into the specification of the DNG file are also quite useful, better of course if you fully comply. Added to which, I'm sure there will be plenty of tweaking by Adobe and Apple (and other) companies.

I'm afraid I'm not convinced by the arguments for proprietary raw files, you can tweak the algorithms, noise profiles, colour profiles and other aspects of raw conversion for original cameras with respect to DNG as well. It seems to me that in almost every case proprietary raw files speak to a company's desire to keep the software profits to themselves rather than an altruistic aim for highest quality

Will Phase do any camera specific tweaking for the S2? I don't know. It's well known that the companies had a bit of a falling out.

Well, I don't know whether they will or not. But it seems to me that co-operation is definitely in both companies best interests, but that scare stories about falling out are in other companies interests.

I'm sure that even without tweaking the processing will be "good enough" but this is hardly a camera being marketed as having any component which is just "good enough".

I've also seen camera specific bugs with DNG (e.g. Phase DNGs in early versions of Aperture had pink highlights).

Well, I'm sure that Adobe will do some 'tweaking' if Leica are shipping Lightroom with each camera, and it seems possible they might have a Phd or two knocking about as well . Generally speaking I like the way Apple deal with raw files, and I'd assume that they'll also provide support for it within Aperture. As for bugs, I like Capture One (and use it) , but I'm not sure that it's immune.

 

[thomas]

Of course not - but it's better than proprietary files which are ONLY supported for companies which are willing to tweak

so you could actually say: it's better than nothing (i.e. better than in camera JPGs). What's the problem to offer a specialised software for high end output of the own manufacturers files and offer in addition DNG suport as the so to say "open format" (as C1 does).
The knowledge behind the raw converison is part of the capital of the respective companies... why should they throw it away (or offer it for free)?

Well, I'm sure that Adobe will do some 'tweaking' if Leica are shipping Lightroom with each camera

of course, they tweak all the time. But without success for any camera by now.
I am looking forward to the "skin tone" disucussions...

 

[dougpeterson]

Doug, for all backs or just the plus series?

Actually better, the improvements extended to the H25 and H20 as well. Though from my limited testing the most improvement was made with the P30+ and P45+.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up

 

[thomas]

Though from my limited testing the most improvement was made with the P30+ and P45+.

So I'm again one of the misfits :-(
I'm just kidding - thanks for addressing this.

 

[jonoslack]

so you could actually say: it's better than nothing (i.e. better than in camera JPGs).

No, I'm saying it's better than proprietary.

What's the problem to offer a specialised software for high end output

There's nothing at all wrong with specialised software, I use C1 almost every day, splendid software. But please protect me from having to use most camera companies 'specialised' software. My idea of slow torture is to be locked in a room with Capture NX for more than an hour or so.

The knowledge behind the raw converison is part of the capital of the respective companies... why should they throw it away (or offer it for free)?

Well, you can be locked in if you like, I'd like my files to be readable after the 'specialised software' company has given up the ghost, added to which, the idea of being locked into something like Olympus Studio software is a nightmare. Capture One is the shining exception to the grubby rule.

There have been internet wide campaigns WRT your arguments, it's all gone quiet these days, but you won't convince me other than that the best answer is a standard file format with scope for optimisation by those little Phd's. (which DNG certainly DOES allow for)

I don't personally go for Adobe conversions either, but your remark that they have failed with every camera is pretty breathtaking considering the number of professionals who use Lightroom every day.

 

[thomas]

No, I'm saying it's better than proprietary.

do you really think DNG is less proprietary?
But: if Phase goes down you still can use DNG... So I enjoy the time span they stay in business, I store a copy of C1 and store an entire computer and just wait what will happen.

My idea of slow torture is to be locked in a room with Capture NX for more than an hour or so.

I don't personally go for Adobe conversions either, but your remark that they have failed with every camera is pretty breathtaking considering the number of professionals who use Lightroom every day.

I find it somehow breathtaking that so many pros work on laptops to judge colour and gradation. That so many pros actually have no idea of colour managment... On the other it's okay that you are not after the very best all the time. But still it's strange that Leica is not up to the very best IQ.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Actually 4.8.2 which says it improved the P40+ and P65+ which seems like they keep tweaking the profile with there new backs since it has been introduced. I will try those test files again when I get home but improving the profiles is something we want to happen. I'm with Doug on this because I see it everyday in the Phase files running in C1 there just dead nuts on the money and they control the noise very well with there backs. This stuff just does not come by accident those little geek heads are working this stuff on a daily basis and it does show in the software conversions. General applications not designed specifically for the camera files are just not going to have that secret sauce built into them. Frankly I am not the biggest fan of LR to begin with, in general it is a nice program but in the end I find C1 better with almost any camera i have run through it.

 

[PeterA]

Guy - I reckon you have gone way over the top with some of your comments about Leica's pricing. It pretty much comes in line with Hasselblad and Phase One entry levels - and as I have said before - look up the costs of good glass again pretty much the same.

Regarding hack shooters views on following so called professional shooter's choices - well that is up to hack shooters and internet noise makers.The absolute LAST person I care about is the so called self labelled pro shooter's views on camera gear or photography .

Like any product - you either like it or not. I dont think anyone has enough information to make a decision about Leica S2 or not yet.

The simple truth is that maginificent images can be made with a $50 camera or a $50,000 dollar camera - everything betwen these two extremes is simply buyer's choice and personal preference.

People are entitled to their biases - but any individual's decision is interesting ONLY regarding the decision tree they follow regarding their decision - I just dont get all the fixation and angst about price - if something is too expensive - dont buy it, 'too expensive' is a different answer for ifferent people.

 

[jonoslack]

People are entitled to their biases - but any individual's decision is interesting ONLY regarding the decision tree they follow regarding their decision - I just dont get all the fixation and angst about price - if something is too expensive - dont buy it, 'too expensive' is a different answer for ifferent people.

Precisely Peter (and the rest as well). But I'm afraid that you're pi$$ing in the wind - The outrage will continue I'm sure.

Of course, the proof of this particular pudding is in the eating, and we only know what it looks like at the moment, and not what it tastes like.

But the idea that Leica was going to make a 'blue collar' camera seems to me about as likely as the idea that Porsche would produce an affordable family estate.