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H6D100s are delivering.Long thread with tons of great info, not sure if this one is in here or not but it could be an important consideration depending on your circumstance: You can basically get an XF + IQ-x100mp tomorrow, who knows when an H6D-100 would deliver.
I think the difference is $17000 for body only.Is price a feature? What's the price difference between the two when buying back and body only and / or with an 80mm lens?
I think the difference is $17000 for body only.
FYI pricing is a little more complicated than that. The $44k price above is for the IQ3 100 back only, doesn't include the XF body. You're looking at $49k for the back, body, and 80mm lens, whereas the H6D-100c is $33k for the back AND body (a new Hassy 80mm lens will run an additional $3.1k). Phase also has an IQ1 100 back which has the same chip as the IQ3 100 and H6D-100c (but loses a lot of the bells and whistles) at $33k, or $38k for the back/body/80mm lens.There is no "body only" price for the H6D-100c. It's a package (body + back, without a lens), the list price of which is $33,000 (https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/prod...ad_h_3013742_h6d_100c_medium_format_dslr.html)
The list price of the comparable Phase One offering is $44,000 (body + back, without a lens): https://digitaltransitions.com/product/phase-one-iq3-100mp-system/
That's a difference of $11,000, not $17,000. To find the actual list price difference in reality, you'd want to factor in the price of a comparable starter lens for each, since neither does you any good without a lens. This is putting aside possible dealer discounting: just speaking of list prices.
Please advise Ove Bengtson because I have asked for auto bracketing and was told there is a patent restriction...which I found, https://www.google.com.cy/patents/U...ved=0ahUKEwijseLpsd7QAhXphFQKHShhDckQ6AEIGDAABeing a lawyer (albeit not a patent lawyer), I very much doubt the TrueFocus functionality is patented or even patentable. You can't patent an idea. If you could, then no phone other than the iPhone could ever have a touch screen; no one but Minolta could ever make an autofocus lens; no one but Ford could ever make a consumer automobile; etc. (By "ever," of course, I mean "during the duration of the patent," which is a long time indeed). The reason the law does not allow you to patent an idea, I gather, is that otherwise it would stifle competition and the technology would never improve (or improve a lot more slowly), at least during the term of the patent.
Thus, while Hassy's *specific implementation of TrueFocus* is almost certainly patented, the *concept* of "set the focus point and have camera adjust the lens focus as needed to maintain that focus point notwithstanding subsequent vertical or horizontal movement" is an optics and engineering concept that can presumably be implemented in ways sufficiently different from Hassy's specific implementation as to not raise patent infringement concerns.
I could easily be proven wrong by an actual patent lawyer: I really haven't thought about patent law since I was in law school. (Or, even better, by someone from Phase explaining the specific reasons they haven't implemented a TrueFocus functionality, whether there is something that would prevent them doing so, and whether that something is Hassy's patent.)
FYI pricing is a little more complicated than that. The $44k price above is for the IQ3 100 back only, doesn't include the XF body. You're looking at $49k for the back, body, and 80mm lens, whereas the H6D-100c is $33k for the back AND body (a new Hassy 80mm lens will run an additional $3.1k). Phase also has an IQ1 100 back which has the same chip as the IQ3 100 and H6D-100c (but loses a lot of the bells and whistles) at $33k, or $38k for the back/body/80mm lens.
The difference between an H6D-100c (back+body) and IQ3 100 back is $11k, the difference between an H6D-100c plus 80mm lens and the IQ3 100mp back/body/80mm is ~$13k. An H6D-100c plus 80mm lens would be in a similar ballpark as an IQ1 100/XF/80mm. Hasselblads you can also order from BH and not pay sales tax, which can save quite a bit of money in US. Of course you won't have the level of support as you would with a Team Phase dealer (in the US at least).
That's of course the advertised prices, Phase dealers can work with you more than Hasselblad dealers on pricing most likely.
Another feature I like about Hasselblads no one has mentioned is Hasselblads lack a dark frame for long exposure shots, whereas for Phase this can only be disabled on a tech cam (AFAIK). I haven't heard or tested this on an H6D-100c but I think it should be similar. Given the size of the investment, the OP should demo both and figured out which works best for their line of work.
Off topic, but I'm a registered patent agent in the US. You're technically right about patenting ideas, but in practice it's much more grey, and there's a lot of misinformation out there. Generally, abstract ideas/concepts are patent ineligible, however, concepts can be patented, but usually they have to be linked to hardware functionality or involve a significant data transformation that can't be done with a human by pen and paper. I did some searching today for the "True Focus Patent" and here's what I found for those that are interested......
Hasselblad's True Focus patent application (from what I could find it's International Application Number PCT/EP2010/059056 filed on 6/25/2010 link: https://worldwide.espacenet.com/pub...C=A1&FT=D&ND=3&date=20101229&DB=&locale=en_EP), in the claims, was implemented on and included non-generic hardware, making it patentable (at least in the US). As far as the patent goes, I only found the published application (which is NOT a patent), and the prosecution history ended in 2011. The European Patent Office says that the patent application was "withdrawn by the Applicant" (https://register.epo.org/application?number=EP10726974), and only Hasselblad could tell us why. Unless the tech is buried in another patent, I didn't see a patent assigned to Hasselblad in the US for the tech, but I didn't search very hard. From what I saw by (briefly) searching in the US and Europe, I don't find it likely that Hasselblad has a patent for True Focus, only a published patent application that was withdrawn and that didn't mature into a patent. I could be wrong and I did not search very extensively, and Hasselblad's patents may have additional assignment entities other than "Hasselblad A/S". The international search report for the patent cited 4-5 patents against it, meaning there's other patents out there to similar technology. I can't find any info on the applications to which the international application claimed priority that preceeded this application for some reason (one in the US in 2009 and one in Europe in 2009), which is a little odd. All of this could help explain why they marketed True Focus as "patent pending" with the H4D and don't highlight the tech more in their marketing literature.
Anyway, only Phase can tell us why they haven't implemented a True Focus-like feature, but it might not be a Hasselblad patent...
Almost no point in designing around that patent, it issued in 1990, and at the time patent term was 17 years from issue, so it probably expires soon, depending on if there was any patent term adjustment at the time of issuePlease advise Ove Bengtson because I have asked for auto bracketing and was told there is a patent restriction...which I found, https://www.google.com.cy/patents/U...ved=0ahUKEwijseLpsd7QAhXphFQKHShhDckQ6AEIGDAA
So if you know of a way around it we could have auto bracketing on the new H6 cameras.
Ove Said
"We couldn’t have the camera perform the bracketing sequence automatically because of a patent."
I assumed that all DSLRs have "auto-bracketing". I know the Sony A7R cameras can be set to auto-bracket, either continuous or with each exposure being triggered separately.Almost no point in designing around that patent, it issued in 1990, and at the time patent term was 17 years from issue, so it probably expires soon, depending on if there was any patent term adjustment at the time of issue
Interesting stuff, tcdeveau! Thanks for doing some investigations. Clearly everyone who owns an XF wants this kind of technology. Phase One, it's time! And please, use that 6-axis gyro and make sure you also take into account the distance from the subject so we can focus on a point and not worry how we move the camera[...]
Anyway, only Phase can tell us why they haven't implemented a True Focus-like feature, but it might not be a Hasselblad patent...
Another difference which was important to us was;
with the H system the back is integrated with the camera body - so if H bring out a H7 camera body then you have to buy a new back and new H7.
where as with the P system, we have an older back with the newer camera body and theoretically if P brings out an IQ3 - 200mp back - we could just buy a new back and use it on our XF camera body.
I did add theoretically. But our IQ180 (old back) - works pretty well with the XF - I suspect we would have been more locked in if we had bought the H4-60 because we would now not be able to justify trading up to a newer H6 camera with better touch screen etc - because we would not be able to just buy the H6 camera to use with our older back. I am not sure if there will be a H6X - that would change things I suspect.
Mal
Good move. Phase One pricing is ridiculousFor what it is worth, I have in the end selected the H6D-100c over the IQ3-100.