So long for now my friends after 10+ years

[akaru]

I’m a bit late on the uptake here but assuming this thread in question is the one about the undisclosed v1 version of the X shutter as it is currently locked. I don’t see anything wrong going on there. Or was it another thread?

To lose a member like Lou is shameful. I have no power here but I will simply make my request that it be unlocked, or a real reason be given for it.

Like Paul, photography for me is personal and with close friends, and I enjoy the forums more for learning all aspects of the field. The site is called getdpi for a reason. It’s not called Luminous Landscapes etc. It’s technical at its core. When researching and purchasing such high end equipment in the pursuit of high “DPI,” it requires knowledge of the economics and companies involved as due diligence for the sometimes significant financial outlay. In a perfect world we could simply buy what we want, know it will work, and chat all day about composition and lighting and forget the shop talk. It’s far from that, and these topics are inextricably tied.

Same goes for the buy and sell forum. If it’s a conversation starter then let conversation flow. There’s been in my opinion unnecessary disruption there to get back on “topic”, whatever that is. Mods should keep out scammers and spammers and keep cool heads.

 

[olafphoto]

Some moderator Drevil just closed a Phase thread I was participating in because he said it got out of control. He is out of control and communism here I will not take.

I will take a look at the situation later today but please let's not create an unnecessary personal drama. I was born and raised behind the iron curtain and my father fought communists so throwing around the term in the context of moderation of this forum is strange, to say at least. Is somebody going to jail? Is someone going to get tortured? Of course not. Forums will never be perfect and moderation is very, very difficult thing - some mistakes will be made. I made plenty of them. I will be publishing end-of-the-year letter in a few days and introducing more changes.

 

[akaru]

I think when people say “communist” they’re not referring to a specific regime or even the economic system, they just mean “totalitarianism” and/or hidden motivations for censorship.

Claiming incendiary comments when there are none and preventing comments in a thread is a clear example of this. There may be no ulterior motive but when literally no one saw a problem with this thread and a decade-long member left because of the moderation and it’s a sensitive topic that may affect the forum sponsor it has a very strong smell of that. If someone is ranting in your opinion, ignore the thread and move to another. Let’s not get caught up in incorrect terminology or emotional responses to that and instead focus on talking about camera stuff. I.E., unlock the thread.

 

[olafphoto]

I think when people say “communist” they’re not referring to a specific regime or even the economic system, they just mean “totalitarianism” and/or hidden motivations for censorship.

Claiming incendiary comments when there are none and preventing comments in a thread is a clear example of this. There may be no ulterior motive but when literally no one saw a problem with this thread and a decade-long member left because of the moderation and it’s a sensitive topic that may affect the forum sponsor it has a very strong smell of that. If someone is ranting in your opinion, ignore the thread and move to another. Let’s not get caught up in incorrect terminology or emotional responses to that and instead focus on talking about camera stuff. I.E., unlock the thread.

Hidden motivations?! Censorship?! This is becoming silly very quickly. I suggest we make this forum paid, hire a few "professional" moderators and move on. Each time a moderator makes a mistake (I am investigating the most current episode) there is a chorus of criticism and outrage. I want to remind everyone that this is a free forum and everyone involved try their best. Moderators are volunteers and they do the best they can (being a moderator is very, very challenging and nearly impossible to make everyone happy). A few years ago, this forum would shut down but thanks to Capture Integration and hard work of many volunteers we keep it going and even invest in it to try it improve. If anyone in this thread is unhappy with moderation, please message me privately and we will be thrilled to have you as a volunteer moderator.

 

[anyone]

Well, from a neutral stance (not involved in this discussion/ haven’t followed the entire thing): if there is an issue, it should be discussed and resolved with the involved parties.

This forum is usually quite nice in its tone, and that is also the reason I come here (besides the wealth of knowledge the members have). Let’s keep it that way!

Also a paid moderator would make mistakes. This doesn’t solve any issue. And activity levels would drop with a paid forum. I understood that thanks to the generous support of CI and us as a community donating we were able to avoid that step.

 

[Paul Spinnler]

Hi Olaf

I understand you when you stress that the forum is a free resource and that everyone should be very thankful and that the forum was almost dead at one point.

But I feel being thankful can also be seen from another perspective and is maybe not the right word here: a forum is built on the countless hours of "free work" of its contributors. That's the amazing thing, a good forum "lives".

Every single reply, every single more in-depth thread – "is for free" created by the various members and the fact that it still exists is in my humble view is because some parties having identified the economic benefit of having access to its user base to place ads and reach potential customers, so it is my understanding that the fact that getdpi exists also drives brand awareness for CI and the magazine.

All I am saying it is not a gift in the sense that the owner and sponsor don't get anything in return. People order very expensive photographic products from the site's sponsor after informing themselves here and I would hope subscribe to the magazine.

On the flipside, a forum is the sum of the contributions of its members, especially the more experienced members since we are approaching an esoteric realm a bit with the niche of digital medium format photography and especially its ultra-high end. There's just not many people with first hand experience of a 18k lens (e.g. 138 HR) around and if these people are willing to post samples, shares insights, etc. then this is a free resource that one should be thankful for which may attract new users and hence sales for CI and the mag. But none of these contributors is salaried.

So I think it is about mutual respect – for the owners, sponsors (who I would assume benefit more than the the site costs) and also the contributors who do not get paid.

History has also shown that stickiness of a forum's user base is VERY LOW if it becomes a subscription solution. Many left Luminous Landscape the moment they introduced 1 USD per month to access the forum and FS section. The site literally imploded. I also thought it was outrageous and quit.

I think this was the beginning of the end to be honest because why should people pay for something they create themselves if there's a clear editorial layer on top that's already making money (in the case of LuLa the paywall behind its main site content).

What is ok is to ask a subscription for editorial content and I think that was very smart. Lula had videos, reviews and quite a bit of content produced exclusively by the site's owner, but behind a paywall towards the end. Ie similar to the content you create and which is very nice.

That IMHO is the ideal way and one should therefore also bear in mind that a forum's success is also based on the many members who share their know-how and are willing to post for free write-ups on esoteric topics like – which lens is sharper the 55 or the 60, etc.

Regarding the thread on the shutters – I sincerely posted it because I thought the topic was of high relevance to this community. I personally was disappointed in learning of undisclosed limitations relating to gear I had purchased with hard earned cash for a significant premium to other manufacturer's similar offerings. To me it was about discussing a hidden product defect.

In the meantime I was able to work out a deal with my dealer here in Europe and I had also gotten official feedback that limitations exist, so my analysis was correct.

I cherish this site, but I would kindly suggest to heed the lessons learned from LuLa on the paid aspect and also think about the enormous "free work" the site benefits from from all its members.

I am not sure I want to spend money to be able to spend time on making an interesting post.

This all said, thanks a lot for running the site and having stepped in when the old owners wanted out. Really thankful.

It is a good place and I hope it will stay great.

 

[olafphoto]

Hi Olaf

I understand you when you stress that the forum is a free resource and that everyone should be very thankful and that the forum was almost dead at one point.

But I feel being thankful can also be seen from another perspective and is maybe not the right word here: a forum is built on the countless hours of "free work" of its contributors. That's the amazing thing, a good forum "lives".

Every single reply, every single more in-depth thread – "is for free" created by the various members and the fact that it still exists is in my humble view is because some parties having identified the economic benefit of having access to its user base to place ads and reach potential customers, so it is my understanding that the fact that getdpi exists also drives brand awareness for CI and the magazine.

All I am saying it is not a gift in the sense that the owner and sponsor don't get anything in return. People order very expensive photographic products from the site's sponsor after informing themselves here and I would hope subscribe to the magazine.

On the flipside, a forum is the sum of the contributions of its members, especially the more experienced members since we are approaching an esoteric realm a bit with the niche of digital medium format photography and especially its ultra-high end. There's just not many people with first hand experience of a 18k lens (e.g. 138 HR) around and if these people are willing to post samples, shares insights, etc. then this is a free resource that one should be thankful for which may attract new users and hence sales for CI and the mag. But none of these contributors is salaried.

So I think it is about mutual respect – for the owners, sponsors (who I would assume benefit more than the the site costs) and also the contributors who do not get paid.

History has also shown that stickiness of a forum's user base is VERY LOW if it becomes a subscription solution. Many left Luminous Landscape the moment they introduced 1 USD per month to access the forum and FS section. The site literally imploded. I also thought it was outrageous and quit.

I think this was the beginning of the end to be honest because why should people pay for something they create themselves if there's a clear editorial layer on top that's already making money (in the case of LuLa the paywall behind its main site content).

What is ok is to ask a subscription for editorial content and I think that was very smart. Lula had videos, reviews and quite a bit of content produced exclusively by the site's owner, but behind a paywall towards the end. Ie similar to the content you create and which is very nice.

That IMHO is the ideal way and one should therefore also bear in mind that a forum's success is also based on the many members who share their know-how and are willing to post for free write-ups on esoteric topics like – which lens is sharper the 55 or the 60, etc.

Regarding the thread on the shutters – I sincerely posted it because I thought the topic was of high relevance to this community. I personally was disappointed in learning of undisclosed limitations relating to gear I had purchased with hard earned cash for a significant premium to other manufacturer's similar offerings. To me it was about discussing a hidden product defect.

In the meantime I was able to work out a deal with my dealer here in Europe and I had also gotten official feedback that limitations exist, so my analysis was correct.

I cherish this site, but I would kindly suggest to heed the lessons learned from LuLa on the paid aspect and also think about the enormous "free work" the site benefits from from all its members.

I am not sure I want to spend money to be able to spend time on making an interesting post.

This all said, thanks a lot for running the site and having stepped in when the old owners wanted out. Really thankful.

It is a good place and I hope it will stay great.

I agree with most of what you said and share the sentiment. Therefore, it is especially important that we all try to avoid cheap sensationalism and drama. It is a human nature to navigate toward controversial and negative topics but I believe that the strength of this forum is in shared knowledge and exchange of ideas. I hope there will be more of it and less personal drama. I also wish we could focus on other topics like printing (please see the front page) and image-processing, which are highly correlated with high-resolution cameras many of us use. We are working hard to bring you more content related to those topics and I hope we will have insightful and engaging conversations about them. P.S. Free or not free - most forums are dying and I don't know anyone who would make money on them. Although I personally believe that when you pay for something (even $1) it shows certain commitment and eliminates those who participate only to create never-ending controversies. Our team is doing our best to avoid this route.

 

[Paul Spinnler]

Well the printing stuff is very interesting, Olaf!

It was one of the key aspects LuLa also stressed at the end of its heyday and I always enjoyed their videos around printing technique.

Looking forward to what comes out as printing is the final step of the photographic endeavor!

 

[stevenfr]

Luminous does not charge for their forum just site content

 

[Paul Spinnler]

Luminous does not charge for their forum just site content

They charged at one point very briefly. Pls. correct me if I am wrong. Now they have horrible ads everywhere and no content contributors.

It died.

 

[stevenfr]

I think its always been free. No sure it has died.

 

[Paul Spinnler]

Well what happened was that they put everything behind the paywall at first to then backtrack on the forum part after a huge outcry.



That was the original offer, with access to the forum as a key element.

They later added the info on the changes to the forum post:

Important News - Change At Luminous-Landscape - Luminous Landscape

FacebookTweet A New Change For Luminous-Landscape Updated November 25, 2015 For over 15 years Luminous-Landscape has been a valuable resource for the photo enthusiast. Michael...

luminous-landscape.com

But that was a retroactive change as seen from the post above.

On our forum there were also people commenting on the accrss to the forum piece:

****

https://www.getdpi.com/forum/index....pe-going-pay-to-view-next-month.56901/page-2; second page, post 21:

I find this change over LL to be pretty lame, sorry.

For the ones saying that we still find valuables infos on LL, it is probably true for a some "late guys on internet" but LL ISN'T anymore what it used to be some years ago. The forum isn't that active and you see always the same usual suspects over and over again. As the date of today LuLa forum is a utter boring place. The front page is cool because of the articles and funny videos but that's all.

I respect what did MR and KR over the years but I can't cope with the fact of monetizing even the forum; this sound like just a bold capitalist move and Imho it is just not compatible with what is, deeply, photography.

I own my own domain and can run a forum tomorrow and find some "free" moderators and it wont cost me more than what I already pay to my host every years : 70 Euros / unlimited traffic.

America, country of Freedom ... if you pay.

Thanks but no.

I hope that GDPI will never be fee based, ever !! It will be a major error attracting only a portion of the actual user base. Lula will run into some surprises even with their video bait... no need to be out of Harvard to smell it at 5 miles.

After all, Ken Rockwell rule them all, and even if it is opinionated, ken Rockwell is free.

****

Everyone complained and then they changed it and added in-between-post ads which were horrible and a nuisance. Then MR passed away (RIP), there was ugly infighting and then it disintegrated completely.

The forum is completely dead, I am sorry:



A few lost post every few days, the last Dec 09 and then Nov 27, 24, 23, 21, 15, 05, Oct 09!

In my book that's a dead forum.

 

[Bill Caulfeild-Browne]

LULA did charge briefly - $12 per annum - but in truth it started its decline after the death of my friend Michael Reichmann. It was his energy and hard work that made it successful.

 

[Paul Spinnler]

I think LuLa is a bit different in the sense that the imprint of the founder was so strong that it was never able to recover. He was a force of nature and a joy to watch.

GetDPI managed the transition from the old guard very well and with the economy set to pick up next year (inflation going down), P1 being innovative again, fingers crossed for a bright future incl. new content around printing and large format!

 

[akaru]

And now it appears the Reichmanns will no longer be involved in Lula at all: https://luminous-landscape.com/changing-tides-passing-the-torch/

 

[Paul Spinnler]

And now it appears the Reichmanns will no longer be involved in Lula at all: https://luminous-landscape.com/changing-tides-passing-the-torch/

Interesting, a fusion with KR's site would be the natural solution, but the bilateral history may be a hindrance. Or DT?

In any case, as you stated, GetDPI always had a more technical slant so curious to see how the landscape of fora evolves.

Update: Survey just came in; essentially they want to understand what kind of content they should focus on (reviews, tutorials, post-production), ie the strategy is to branch out and by editorially active incl. them potentially joining the lucrative workshop circuit with mentored workshop offerings ...

Seems the new owner wants to leverage the dormant user base.

 

[buildbot]

Update: Survey just came in; essentially they want to understand what kind of content they should focus on (reviews, tutorials, post-production), ie the strategy is to branch out and by editorially active incl. them potentially joining the lucrative workshop circuit with mentored workshop offerings ...

I think leveraging the community for in person events is actually great for everyone as long as it’s not just about making money. For example, a getdpi workshop where you get to make your own palladium print? That sounds awesome! Good advertising for cones and for getdpi/capture integration.

 

[Paul Spinnler]

I wonder who's the new investor behind LuLa. Could be a professional re-seller like CI or, dare I think in this direction, a national photo chain? Who knows ...

What's clear is that everyone is focused on adding editorial and experiential aspects in addition to just the plain technical side ... it is for sure a vast option space including techniques, reviews, social experiences, theory (composition, colour), practice (organization, travel logistics, printing) ...

The old LuLa under Reichmann tried to cover all of this ...

 

[Knorp]

what was this thread about again ...

 

[drevil]

what was this thread about again ...