carstenw
Active member
Jack, aren't you thinking of the HZX? The TFC has only rear rise:
https://www.badgergraphic.com/store/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=3165
and the HZX has base tilts and only a little axis tilt...
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Linhof Master Technika vs. Chamonix 45N-2 vs. Ebony ?
- Thread starter carstenw
- Start date
https://www.badgergraphic.com/store/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=3165
and the HZX has base tilts and only a little axis tilt...
D
DougDolde
Guest
IOC. Yes same model. Well it will work fine with a 210mm lens assuming you aren't trying to do macro work. As far as the rise goes you can tilt the camera then level the front and rear standard to get all the rise you want.
carstenw
Active member
While the Arca does look like a very nice camera, it also looks like I would need to switch to the bag bellows for wides (?), and so between that, gymnastics with getting rear movements, and limitations in the close focus distance with my 210, and I just don't see the particular attraction of the camera, compared to either the Master Technika or the Chamonix. The MT is a battle tank, true gothic heavy metal, and the Chamonix is a modern classic with great flexibility and strength. What does the Arca Swiss bring to the table?
I don't mean to disparage your choice, it might be perfect for you, and I have great respect for Arca Swiss products in general, but for what I am looking for, I see no advantage of this camera.
I don't mean to disparage your choice, it might be perfect for you, and I have great respect for Arca Swiss products in general, but for what I am looking for, I see no advantage of this camera.
My bad, I thought it had the same movements as the 6x9 version, stupid it doesn't: https://www.badgergraphic.com/store/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=3164
Yeah, so I'm back to the Cham for you
L
lilmsmaggie
Guest
According to Hugo, it should ship the last week in March.
D
DougDolde
Guest
No problem, whatever. I'd never consider a Chamonix personally.
D
DougDolde
Guest
You know I'm really tired of this banter. Do as you like. I've better things to do than convince you of anything.
Carsten and Jack,
The Shen-Hao being copy of Ebony? Well... is it really, or no more copy of an IDEA than Canon vs. Nikon vs. Sony and all the rest?? Think about it. How about the Linhof Techno being copy of the Ebony SW? Same idea or principle of cameras.
No worry about being critical, like I said we all have tad different preferences.
In regards to movements, do consider this;
1. Shifts and rise/fall = perspective corrections.
2. Front tilts and swings = DOF extensions.
3. Rear tilts = enables exaggeration of nearby subjects vs. far distance.
Do you need 3? Or, in the few cases when you do can you tilt the camera?
Looking back I feel lucky in my choice because I now do not see need in 3 for me. I prefer more rigid back and SIMPLE set to set up. The TFC has both 1 & 2.
If you want a more rigid camera, probably a rigid metal mono rail camera like an Arca is better than any of your other choices. Perhaps the MT is somewhere inbetween the wooden ones and that, not sure.
Perhaps read up what people say here http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/
Regards
Anders
carstenw
Active member
Well, I didn't mean that they are conceptually the same, like a Nikon and a Sony. I mean that it is an actual copy. If you look at the two webpages:
Shen Hao TFC 45-IIB:
https://www.badgergraphic.com/store/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=3165
Ebony SW45:
http://www.badgergraphic.com/store/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=76
You will see that they look very similar, even almost the same. The lock for the front standard swing is even the same, and isn't like other cameras. The specs are almost identical:
Shen Hao:
Front: rise 45mm, fall 25mm, shift 26mm, swing +/-45°, tilt +/-20°
Back: rise 50mm
Bellows extension: 50-190mm
Ebony:
Front: rise 60mm, fall 25mm, shift 38mm, swing +/-45°, tilt +/-20°
Back: rise 50mm
Bellows extension: 46-190mm
The places where there are differences, the Ebony has a little more movement, probably due to a thinner, more supple bellows, and due to more elegant construction. One example is front shift, where the Shen Hao, since it is screwed together, has two blocks, one on each side, for stability. This limits shift. The Ebony is welded or bent titanium, and doesn't need the blocks, and so gains 12mm shift on each side.
The Ebony is better built, but the price is vastly higher, and they are both good products, the Shen Hao being better value for the money. However, the Shen Hao (and not only this model) is a very literal copy of the Ebony. This has been their business model, more or less, since Mr. Kwok left, as far as I understand.
3 is also for correcting perspective. Pointing the camera straight and using rise on the front allows keeping a building straight. But what if your lens doesn't have enough coverage? Point the camera up, and tilt the back. Sideways works the same. I find this to be a very interesting possibility. One situation I have come across several times in my current project is a grave memorial which I wanted to photograph from straight on, but there was a tree in front. So, I can move to the side a bit, and shift the front. Front shift on portable cameras is often quite limited, however, so I could also move to the side, point the camera at the grave, and then swing the back to correct the perspective.
As I mentioned previously, I am fine with giving up rise, fall and shift on the back. These are fully equivalent to rise, fall and shift on the front, and can be simulated with more effort with tilt and swing on the back. I do want to have a camera which can do tilt and swing on the back, however. The effect of these are not equivalent to front movements, although with a bit of effort, and a lens with a very large image circle, you could get around it.
I do read the Large Format Photography Forum, by the way. You probably haven't seen me there, since I am not posting so much yet.
We can disagree of that the above makes Shen-Hao a copy. My view is they are based on the same principle/concept, no more than difference of a 1Ds3 and D3X. Actually, I was originally planning to get the Ebony SW45. The only Ebony I seen live was a 23S in a used camera shop in Shanghai. The price they were asking was to laugh at (more than one can buy a new from the States for!) and its rail alignment was wrong due some accident or similar, but suffice for me to make my mind up of that an Ebony was not worth it for me. The Burmese Teak of the Shen does not have same fancy shine of elegant furniture as was my impression of the Ebony, but I found the Ebony to look dull in comparison and the Shen to look far more appealing and of beauty. Yet, they are mere tools. Adding the price difference and great service of the Shen-Hao shop in Shanghai, which is a place I travel often, thus the choice was simple for me. If something were to malfunction they can fix it far more cheap than shipping to Japan. Or, actually I could replace it cheaper than service in Japan of an Ebony would cost! Again, everyone have different preferences, I just inform of the ones I had, then it is for others to make their own.
I was only trying help
. In frankness I do wish you luck with which ever camera you choose, and after all it is only a tool. As I said, if you need more preciseness, perhaps look at an Arca, else perhaps the MT albeit $$ and weight. If you can look at them in person it will be a good help, but even in Shanghai and Hong Kong there is limit to what large format cameras one can see new... the world is on this thing called "a digital MP bug"... Regards
Anders
carstenw
Active member
Well, my initial LF camera destiny (how is that for limiting the damage) has been decided, for now. I finally managed to get into contact with the older gentleman whose MT I looked at when I went to the recent camera swap meet here in Berlin. He actually worked at Linhof, is a fine mechanic, and has a small business fixing and selling old Linhof cameras in his spare time. One more avenue to retirement, probably. The Master Technika was still there, I expressed my continued curiousity in it, and he said he could put it aside for me, if I was pretty sure I wanted it. There are two other big swap meets coming up for him, so he wanted to know before putting it aside, so I had to choose. I am very curious about this camera, and am happy to have it be my first 4x5. If it doesn't work out, I can probably sell it on at little or no loss, since it is in mint condition, and the price is right. I will have the money about the middle of March and will pick it up then.
If one day I should get an 8x10, it will probably be the Chamonix.
If one day I should get an 8x10, it will probably be the Chamonix.
carstenw
Active member
Thanks Jack, fun I will have for sure!
The 135 Xenar story will probably go on for a bit, but since it was an extra lens, it won't hold me back as I flesh out my kit. I picked up 5 nearly new Fidelity film holders yesterday, and have my eyes on ways of developing negatives. I need a dark cloth, and other than that, I am close to ready to shoot. I just need that camera!
The 135 Xenar story will probably go on for a bit, but since it was an extra lens, it won't hold me back as I flesh out my kit. I picked up 5 nearly new Fidelity film holders yesterday, and have my eyes on ways of developing negatives. I need a dark cloth, and other than that, I am close to ready to shoot. I just need that camera!
Carsten,
Interesting and brilliant choice. The German equal to my shopping in Shanghai I presume??
. Very best luck on you 4x5 imaging!!! :thumbs:
carstenw
Active member
Haha, well, it is the *local* choice But seriously, I am a tech-head, and love well crafted technical things. This camera plays directly to that weakness
With the movements it has, the missing ones can be creatively arrived at, including large shifts and tilts, but I am aware that having them natively, so to speak, would be more convenient. I will find out how much of a compromise that is. The weight is the only other disadvantage, but the MT doesn't weigh more than similar Ebonys!
But seriously, I am a tech-head, and love well crafted technical things. This camera plays directly to that weakness With the movements it has, the missing ones can be creatively arrived at, including large shifts and tilts, but I am aware that having them natively, so to speak, would be more convenient. I will find out how much of a compromise that is. The weight is the only other disadvantage, but the MT doesn't weigh more than similar Ebonys!