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Smaller alternative to 4x5"?

tjv

Active member
Hi all.
I'm crippled with the ongoing costs of shooting 4x5" film. Where I live, the only option for developing C-41 sheet film is the equivalent of $18USD per sheet.
I've never really shot 4x5" for the extra detail, mainly more for the movements and composition / gg experience so I'm wondering what a good smaller format, 6x7cm option might be to replace / supplement my Technika outfit.
I only use a 150mm and 90mm on 4x5" so will need some high quality equivalents if I move down a format – my 90mm is an f8 Super-Angulon and I don't think it would be great if shooting 6x7cm as it's not very bright on the ground glass and is rather average in terms of sharpness etc.
I'd love to spring for a Techno as it looks well built and can accomodate a MFD back, but that kind of money is out of the question.
Any ideas on some outfits to look into?
Thanks,
TJV
 

Shashin

Well-known member
Horseman make really nice roll-film holders for 4x5.

Horseman also made some really nice medium-format flat-bed view cameras.

Arca Swiss also has medium-format view cameras.
 

Oren Grad

Active member
To name just a few:

Horseman VH/VH-R and older models.

Ebony 23-series field cameras.

Linhof Technikardan 23, Technika 23.

Many variants of ARCA-SWISS F-line monorail.

Shen-Hao 6x9 field camera.

6x7 rollholder on 4x5 field camera optimized for wide-angle use - e.g., Ebony SW series, Shen-Hao clones.
 

tjv

Active member
Great, thanks guys! Will look into some of the models mentioned and check back in with more questions...
 

tjv

Active member
Holy cow, the Ebony 23 looks sexy! First one I Googled and it stopped me in my tracks!
 

Lars

Active member
Yep I have an Ebony SW23, it's really neat, packs well, even with a lens. Shenhao non folding looks very similar but a lower price probably means some compromises.
I added a Horseman angle viewer to mine so no need for a darkcloth. But they're a bit hard to find nowadays.
Lenses - Schneider Apo Symmar 5.6/100 is great on 6x9. I juuust covers 4x5 so on 6x9 you have a moderate wideangle with plenty of movement.
Schneider 47 SAXL works great too - no need for a recessed board.
On the long end I got Ebony's tophat board for a 180 Apo-Symmar.
 

tjv

Active member
Thanks, Lars. What are the differences between the different SW23 and SW23C models? Is it just bellows extension? Thanks also for the lens tips. Do you use the 100mm and 47mm ones you mentioned? Are they up to task at f11-f16 compared to, say, the great Mamiya 7 50mm and 80mm lenses I love?
 

tjv

Active member
PS: The Horseman VH seems to be out because it can't accomodate the 47mm. Is this correct?
 

Oren Grad

Active member
PS: The Horseman VH seems to be out because it can't accomodate the 47mm. Is this correct?
This is correct. The Horseman press/technical cameras are designed to handle focal lengths down to about 65mm. A few users have taken radical steps (special lensboards, surgery on the bodies) to accommodate shorter lenses, but for most users it's not worth the trouble.
 

Lars

Active member
The Mamiya lenses are great. 47XL is plenty sharp and covers 4x5 so it's a great superwide for architecture. Jack tested my Apo-Symmar 100 on a digital rig and was impressed with it, more so than with my 120 Digitar.

Whether the Mamiya lenses would have any edge over these two lenses at f/11-16 I cannot say. I would guess that diffraction would cancel out most of the difference in resolving power. But that's just a guess.

SW23S has a longer base (12 cm) than SW23 (8 cm), and also adds rear movement beyond the rise that SW23 has. This means SW23S doesn't pack as small as SW23, but extends to 255 mm vs 157 mm.

As I mentioned, I put my 180 in a tophat board to be able to use it on SW23. SW23S can use longer lenses, 210 would work well. Rear tilt and swing would be nice too.

Ebony makes custom designs, just aske them. If I made a purchase decision today I would ask for a SW23S with a 10.5 cm base, this would allow for 3 x 1.5cm less extension = 210 mm. That would accomodate my 180 except for with macro, and I could use a 240 with tophat extensions.
 

Lars

Active member
I bought a Horseman VH once, returned it the next day. It was horribly awkward even with a 65. I would call it a point and shoot, not a technical camera.
 

tjv

Active member
So funny. I watched a documentary on Alec Soth last night and the sight of him lugging around his 8x10" made my blood pump. As much as my head tells me I need to be practical and downsize my format, my heart tells me bigger is better.

On another note, I figured as much about the Horseman VH, et al, Lars. In an ideal world I'd buy something like a Techno on which I could mount a DB later down the track. Alas, cost of entry is a little too high right now. The Ebony might be a good in between as it takes the same lens boards and I don't have to worry about helicoid lens mounts.

Hmmm...
 

Lars

Active member
I like the 6x9 technical camera concept. Film is large enough to resolve quite a lot, lenses are plenty, E-6 development is still affordable, scanning options are still good, and at least the Ebony SW23 packs really well. I had mine backpacking in Chile for three months with a little Gitzo 1128 tripod. When bringing my 8x10 backpack I often stick the SW23 and a roll film holder into one of the side pockets.

Going 8x10 isn't just about size - it's at least for me a completely different shooting style. Careful, deliberate, no room for experiments or mistakes.
 
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