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M9 and B&W?

fotografz

Well-known member
There are a ton of good brains on this forum ... and Guy has been good enough to load M9 DNGs for people to play with even if they do not have a M9.

Here's my dilemma:

So far I have not been able to get decent B&W conversions out of the M9 ... and trust me, I've been working at it (I'll share the journey later in this post).

IMHO, except for a couple of B&Ws from Riccis BUT not all of them, I've yet to see acceptable B&W conversions ... or at least not consistently equal to the M8 ... or for that matter my D3X ... and most certainly not anywhere in the league of B&W film. Guy tried some, I went through all of Juno's delightful Crete images (wonderful color, not so wonderful B&W) and so on. I managed a few decent ones, but it's a low yield.

BTW, I'd be eternally grateful if Riccis shared how he is converting including camera settings if any.

Now this is NOT meant as an evaluation of other works or subject matters, but for me a M is not for shooting butterflies or flowers or stuff like that ... as wonderful as those images have been. I can do that with a $2,000. 24 meg image stabilized Sony A850 and Zeiss optics. Riccis is more in the subject zone that I think of when I think M. Above all, I think B&W, candid, and street when it comes to an M ... except for travel like how Juno used it. In other words, IT HAS TO DO BOTH. Very important to me as 70% of my M work is B&W. I suspect I'm not alone here.

So I've spent hours and hours with no joy. I tried C1 Pro latest version, and tried Jack's suggestion of other profiles including "Film High Contrast" ... I've tried Gradient Map B&W in Photoshop (i.e., tone mapping) which is usually pretty close with the M8 and D3X ... I have an array of actions for B&W conversions in my PS actions pallet including one from Jeff Ascough called "Jeff's Main Squeeze", which is designed to juice up lower contrast mid-tone files, I have a bunch of Presets in Light-Room, a couple of which are one button solutions for most any camera I own. I tried all versions of B&W conversions in PS and LR as well as C1. I tried my old trick of discarding the red and blue channels and converting the green channel to B&W and Gradient mapping it, which often works but didn't for M9 files.

The closest so far has been the stock LR Preset called B&W High Contrast ... but the skin tones go flat and brights get very close to not holding any tone, so if I goose the contrast any more they'd disappear.

I haven't bought Nik Silver Effects Pro yet, so if someone has it and has a few moments to apply it to one of Guy's DNGs (preferably something with people in it), that would be great.

I was going to sell my M8, but until this is solved (and we WILL solve it), it's not going anywhere.

Any further suggestions? (i.e., HELP)!

-Marc
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Marc maybe of help to see a sample of what you are after in the final image. Maybe we can figure out how to get there. My guess maybe skin tones in the M8 with the IR even filtered have a transulent look to them. I am thinking since leica pulled the red up it made skin tone flat and the m8 had more transparency.
 

KurtKamka

Subscriber Member
Hi Marc,

I'm a big fan of Silver Effects and use it quite a bit ... because it's very flexible and easy to use.

I quickly grabbed the first image I could find in Guy's raw folder with a person in it and did a couple of quick conversions. The first was with the neutral setting and the second with an orange filter.

Kurt
 

TRSmith

Subscriber Member
I'd be interested in learning more too. And willing to take a stab at a test file. If nothing else, it would be another approach. I do have Silver Efex but tend to use it a little differently than "stock".

Maybe one way to go about it would be to use one of your M9 files that you think has the potential (or wish had the potential) of one of your M8s. I've downloaded some of Guy's shots, but you never know what you're going to get since there's no preview.

Is there a way for you to post a DNG from the M9 that can be downloaded? Then stick one of your preferred M8 B&Ws here in the thread and we can have that as a target.
 

jonoslack

Active member
HI Marc
First of all I'm going to be pedantic . . . It's jOno, and not jUno . . not important, and I'll try not to call your Mark to keep it even :)

Having said this, I'll hold up my hands, my B&W conversions aren't good enough - I think some of them were okay: This one for instance:
Considering

But I'll accept it's very far from the standards you are trying to achieve (I'm not being humble, colour has always been my thing).

However, not having tried Silver Efex Pro seems odd - why not download a trial version and give it a go?
 

Riccis

New member
Marc:

I'm more than happy to tell you guys how I do my B&W conversions but please keep in mind that I did not work the M9 images I posted to the fullest since I was traveling overseas, NYC and L.A. over the past couple of weeks... If you want, please post the images you like and maybe one of your files along with an explanation of what you think is not to your liking.

Cheers,
 

Bob

Administrator
Staff member
I am having a difficult time understanding why a particular camera might be such an important variable in B&W conversions. As far as I am aware, the conversion process is independent of the underlying image except to the extent that it might need some minor adjustment depending on the specific minor color and contrast of the sensor and firmware.
There are some scenes that just convert better than others, so the best comparison might be camera a to camera b shots of the same scene and light
-bob
 

fotografz

Well-known member
HI Marc
First of all I'm going to be pedantic . . . It's jOno, and not jUno . . not important, and I'll try not to call your Mark to keep it even :)

Having said this, I'll hold up my hands, my B&W conversions aren't good enough - I think some of them were okay: This one for instance:
Considering

But I'll accept it's very far from the standards you are trying to achieve (I'm not being humble, colour has always been my thing).

However, not having tried Silver Efex Pro seems odd - why not download a trial version and give it a go?
Oh my, sorry for the miss-spelling Jono.

IMO, your sample has flat blacks on the left side, which is exactly what I'm talking about. It's fine if that's what you were after creatively, but as a sample of full tonal range B&W with deep blacks that still hold detail and subtile separations of near blacks, it's not what I'm talking about.

I don't have Nik Silver Efex Pro because I have never needed it (I tried a trial download). I'm sure it takes some time to master, so the thought was to see what someone with skill using it could do before investing the time, not just the money.
 

docmoore

Subscriber and Workshop Member
Oh my, sorry for the miss-spelling Jono.

IMO, your sample has flat blacks on the left side, which is exactly what I'm talking about. It's fine if that's what you were after creatively, but as a sample of full tonal range B&W with deep blacks that still hold detail and subtile separations of near blacks, it's not what I'm talking about.

I don't have Nik Silver Efex Pro because I have never needed it (I tried a trial download). I'm sure it takes some time to master, so the thought was to see what someone with skill using it could do before investing the time, not just the money.

Marc,

A quick conversion in SE without film style or grain, just small S curve then into PS and corrected highlights.

Bob
 
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fotografz

Well-known member
I am having a difficult time understanding why a particular camera might be such an important variable in B&W conversions. As far as I am aware, the conversion process is independent of the underlying image except to the extent that it might need some minor adjustment depending on the specific minor color and contrast of the sensor and firmware.
There are some scenes that just convert better than others, so the best comparison might be camera a to camera b shots of the same scene and light
-bob
Well, I have experienced B&W differences between different cameras. For example, I've shot a Nikon D3X and A900 side-by-side in the same conditions and the Sony has a flatter mid-tone response which exhibits some similar characteristics as the M9 does when converted to B&W ... but it's not quite as pronounced and can be corrected to some degree.

The problem with flat mid-tones is that when you adjust the curve to correct them, one of the two extremes tends to suffer. What I'm seeing is that people are trying to keep some tone in the brights so they don't get blown, and the darks block up.
 

jonoslack

Active member
Oh my, sorry for the miss-spelling Jono.
No worries . . I'll put off the sex change!

IMO, your sample has flat blacks on the left side, which is exactly what I'm talking about. It's fine if that's what you were after creatively, but as a sample of full tonal range B&W with deep blacks that still hold detail and subtile separations of near blacks, it's not what I'm talking about.
Okay - got it - I quite understand. I like the conversions I've been getting, but that's because I WAS after flat blacks (skies in the landscapes as well)
I don't have Nik Silver Efex Pro because I have never needed it (I tried a trial download). I'm sure it takes some time to master, so the thought was to see what someone with skill using it could do before investing the time, not just the money.
Well, there are enough people who like it and the learning curve isn't very steep, so perhaps it would be worth trying again?

Is this one simply lacking in perzang?

 

fotografz

Well-known member
Riccis, I liked the very first image when you started the "More fun with M9 thread."

Now it may have been ideal lighting and all that, but it's an example of what B&W should look like IMO. Skin tone is right on, detail held in the dark clothes against a dark door with good separation ... yet the door's window reflection holds subtile tonal seperation ... and the bright white tennis shoes pop but have detail. Very good contrast without losing detail at the extremes of the tonal scale. :thumbup:

If it weren't for that image, I'd be a bit worried about B&W with the M9.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
No worries . . I'll put off the sex change!



Okay - got it - I quite understand. I like the conversions I've been getting, but that's because I WAS after flat blacks (skies in the landscapes as well)

Well, there are enough people who like it and the learning curve isn't very steep, so perhaps it would be worth trying again?

Is this one simply lacking in perzang?

Yep, nice as that shot is, IMO it lacks Leica M Pizzaz! Zing! Juice! or what-ever you want to call it. To my eye it's flat and lacks of subtile mid-tone contrast punch ... it undermines the characteristics of the M lenses that I'm used to seeing. Again, it may well be differences in creative preferences ... but when almost everything B&W from this camera is looking that way, including my own attempts, then I get suspicious.

I will take your suggestion and try the Nik software again tomorrow.

Thanks,

Marc
 

John Black

Active member
Marc - Have tried shooting a 8-bit DNGs? Depending on how Leica is compressing the files to 8 bits, this might get the remapping of lower and upper tones you're looking for. I would assume Leica is using the same codec (or whatever you want to call it) as the M8 for the 8-bit DNGs. It's essentially the same sensor, same compression (potentially), so similar results. That's my guess.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Marc - Have tried shooting a 8-bit DNGs? Depending on how Leica is compressing the files to 8 bits, this might get the remapping of lower and upper tones you're looking for. I would assume Leica is using the same codec (or whatever you want to call it) as the M8 for the 8-bit DNGs. It's essentially the same sensor, same compression (potentially), so similar results. That's my guess.
I will try that also, thanks for the notion.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Thanks for all the suggestions so far, keep 'em coming!

Just to help define what I'm after, here are 4 shots converted to B&W with little effort ... 2 from the M8 and 2 from the D3X (which is the best 35mm DSLR for B&W I've used to date).

I looked for some images shot in shade, in light like Guy has to deal with (direct blasting sunlight) and a couple done indoors with mixed lighting.

Note that the brights and darks dominate with the mid-tones knitting it all together ... so the impression is "snappy contrast" ... but there is detail in those brights and darks. I have to hold detail in the wedding dress while not totally blocking up the Tuxedos or darks.

My issue is that the mid-tones dominate with the M9 conversions at the expense of the lights and darks.

-Marc
 
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