M9 firmware in a M8?

[Mango]

Maybe I'm missing something. Using 6-bit coded lenses or paint-coding other lenses, the M8/8.2 recognizes the particular lens, and the software within the camera performs the necessary corrections. There is no need for a rewrite of the correcting software, as it's already there.

The only issue I was raising was to be able to bypass the coding, and to key in the lens identification. This is not rocket science, as it is the procedure on the M9. If I have a way of keying in the lens code via the buttons and screen on the back of the camera, I'll be a happy camper, and that's not much to ask of Leica; I don't think it will eat into their profitability. Not doing so might alienate a lot of non-professionals who don't want to take another financial bath by selling their M8s for the M9. Am I off base here?

 

[roey]

Maybe I'm missing something. Using 6-bit coded lenses or paint-coding other lenses, the M8/8.2 recognizes the particular lens, and the software within the camera performs the necessary corrections. There is no need for a rewrite of the correcting software, as it's already there.

The only issue I was raising was to be able to bypass the coding, and to key in the lens identification. This is not rocket science, as it is the procedure on the M9. If I have a way of keying in the lens code via the buttons and screen on the back of the camera, I'll be a happy camper, and that's not much to ask of Leica; I don't think it will eat into their profitability. Not doing so might alienate a lot of non-professionals who don't want to take another financial bath by selling their M8s for the M9. Am I off base here?

Well, nobody here has seen the sources of the M8 firmware. So, all we can do is speculate. I am basing my assumptions on Stephan Daniel's statements in the interview on Luminous Landscape, where he states that adding a lens menu to the M8 would be expensive (starting at around 2:20). I have no reason to assume that he is lying.

 

[fotografz]

Well, nobody here has seen the sources of the M8 firmware. So, all we can do is speculate. I am basing my assumptions on Stephan Daniel's statements in the interview on Luminous Landscape, where he states that adding a lens menu to the M8 would be expensive (starting at around 2:20). I have no reason to assume that he is lying.

Depends on what is really expensive right? Helping M8 owners realize their investment in Leica or not? Heck, if they could make the M8 more valuable, more people could sell them and go to the M9 ...

I'd be great if they made the M8 firmware so it included all the ISO settings now on the M9 ... the M8 should have had that in the first place.

-Marc

 

[bradhusick]

Leica could cheaply and easily implement the lens menu for the M8 so the chosen lens would show up in the EXIF data. I am not suggesting they implement the lens corrections, just the EXIF information. I think that would be useful.

 

[LJL]

You lost me on that one, Brad. The real value of having a lens selection option is for the corrections it would make when capturing the image with respect to sensor size, cyan drift, optical performance, etc. Just having the listing so that post into the EXIF is of little value. Well maybe if there is some third-party tool one uses to make corrections after capture that requires that sort of EXIF data, then it would be useful. Because Leica does not have its own processing software aside from JPEG creation in the camera, there is probably little interest or need on their part. I think it would be far more valuable to have the proper correction at time of capture, so putting that data into a table, as is done with the M9 is far more useful, I think, rather than simply posting in the EXIF only. Just my opinion here.

LJ

 

[Mango]

I am basing my assumptions on Stephan Daniel's statements in the interview on Luminous Landscape, where he states that adding a lens menu to the M8 would be expensive (starting at around 2:20). I have no reason to assume that he is lying.

Is this the same person who said the physics was not there for a full frame Leica Digital M (or was it someone else), and Steven Lee got the shaft for alluding to the FF M? If people had known that a full frame M was soon to be available, a lot of them, myself included, would not have bought the M8 camera. The M8 buyers saved Leica, and now they have thrown us under the bus.

Being a non-pro, I get no tax breaks in buying gear, so I cannot buy and sell at the drop of a hat. Leica should realize this if they care about the community. It's getting crowded under the bus.

 

[jonoslack]

Is this the same person who said the physics was not there for a full frame Leica Digital M (or was it someone else), and Steven Lee got the shaft for alluding to the FF M? If people had known that a full frame M was soon to be available, a lot of them, myself included, would not have bought the M8 camera. The M8 buyers saved Leica, and now they have thrown us under the bus.

Well, I'm sure we did (us M8 buyers save Leica). But then, if we hadn't bought an M8 (and you say you wouldn't if you'd known that a FF M9 was possible) then there wouldn't have been an M9. . . . . and you wouldn't even have had your M8:shocked:

Being a non-pro, I get no tax breaks in buying gear, so I cannot buy and sell at the drop of a hat. Leica should realize this if they care about the community. It's getting crowded under the bus.

I think it's beyond the call of duty to expect a company to say:

Here is our wonderful new camera . . . but buyers beware, we are planning to put in another 3 years of R&D after which time we'll produce a better camera

Announcing you can do something better before you've got rid of your inventory of the previous model is . . . erm . . .commercial suicide, and that, surely, isn't good for any of us.

 

[jonoslack]

Leica could cheaply and easily implement the lens menu for the M8 so the chosen lens would show up in the EXIF data. I am not suggesting they implement the lens corrections, just the EXIF information. I think that would be useful.

HI Brad
I don't think that's particularly useful. What one needs is the lens corrections so that you can use non-coded lenses with filters on the M8

I agree with Marc - it would be a great thing to implement, it would hold up secondhand M8 values (and thus encourage more M9 sales). The knock on effect would be to sell more lenses as well.

I really hope that they do it, and if the bean counters object, then perhaps they should charge a modest fee for it.

The ISO could be implemented too (who cares if the button says Protect).

I hope they realise what a good PR move it would be.

 

[Mango]

When the M8 was introduced, people had raised the issue of being able to input the codes via the buttons and menu, and the executives from Leica said that they had considered it, but ultimately vetoed the idea because they feared that M8 owners might put in the wrong codes.

The above is written in the archives of the Leica User Forum or some other forum where this issue was discussed (I'm writing from memory).

 

[dfarkas]

When the M8 was introduced, people had raised the issue of being able to input the codes via the buttons and menu, and the executives from Leica said that they had considered it, but ultimately vetoed the idea because they feared that M8 owners might put in the wrong codes.

The above is written in the archives of the Leica User Forum or some other forum where this issue was discussed (I'm writing from memory).

This is true. Stefan told me this in Summer 2007 when we were discussing manual lens selection. They were afraid users would select the wrong codes and blame image quality issues on Leica or that images would be posted online which would reflect negatively on the M8.

From my personal experience, I can attest to this using the M9 and only one uncoded lens among five in my bag. I somehow end up forgetting to either take the camera off Auto or to put it back into Auto. I also tend to change lenses more often than most. I don't use lens caps so I can change quickly without taking my focus off of the unfolding shot in front of me. Ultimately, I will end up coding my 35 Cron so that I don't have to deal with manual selection. The added functionality is nice, but it is one more thing to think about.

Ultimately, getting the wrong code on the M9 doesn't have that much impact on the IQ. You do get bad EXIF data, though. After 2,500 shots with the M9 I'm getting better at the coding selection, but I still don't like the extra step when I can use all coded lenses and eliminate the confusion entirely.

David

 

[Vivek]

I agree with Marc - it would be a great thing to implement, it would hold up secondhand M8 values (and thus encourage more M9 sales). The knock on effect would be to sell more lenses as well.

Well said!

I really hope that they do it, and if the bean counters object, then perhaps they should charge a modest fee for it.

Should be free of charge.

 

[fotografz]

This is true. Stefan told me this in Summer 2007 when we were discussing manual lens selection. They were afraid users would select the wrong codes and blame image quality issues on Leica or that images would be posted online which would reflect negatively on the M8.

From my personal experience, I can attest to this using the M9 and only one uncoded lens among five in my bag. I somehow end up forgetting to either take the camera off Auto or to put it back into Auto. I also tend to change lenses more often than most. I don't use lens caps so I can change quickly without taking my focus off of the unfolding shot in front of me. Ultimately, I will end up coding my 35 Cron so that I don't have to deal with manual selection. The added functionality is nice, but it is one more thing to think about.

Ultimately, getting the wrong code on the M9 doesn't have that much impact on the IQ. You do get bad EXIF data, though. After 2,500 shots with the M9 I'm getting better at the coding selection, but I still don't like the extra step when I can use all coded lenses and eliminate the confusion entirely.

David

Interesting that Leica felt their customers were to stupid to operate their camera if a feature like lens selection were added. Evidently Nikon owners are thought to be more intelligent

However, I did the same thing as mentioned above ... I set the M9 selector to 50mm and forgot about it so all the Exif info read 50mm :ROTFL:

Now I just leave it on auto detection, and when there isn't any exif info, I know it's the 50mm. :thumbup: If there are corrections being made to the 50mm I can't tell from looking at the files. Perhaps more important on focal lengths below 50mm (?????).

-Marc

 

[Mike Hatam]

From my personal testing on the M9, it seems to me that the corrections are very minimal (I can't detect them) from 50mm on up. They seem to be more significant and meaningful below 50mm.

So for the longer lenses, the value of lens detection is really the EXIF data.

I don't even bother to switch over to manual any more for my one uncoded lens (90 elmarit). I use your method Marc - when I see an image with no lens EXIF info, I know it's from the 90 Elmarit.

 

[carstenw]

If pimply teenagers with a rudimentary education can create iPhone Apps by the thousands, there is no reason for Leica cannot do this for the loyal customers who bought the M8 cameras.

Why do you want Leica to release iPhone apps by the thousands for M8 customers?

Personally, I would love to have exposure bracketing for the M8, but I am hoping to buy an M9 soon anyway, so I can wait.

 

[carstenw]

My current M8 is just three months old and I'd expect the "perpetual upgrade programme" for it to at least include the firmware developments that can be incorporated.

Leica deep-sixed the perpetual upgrade program much longer than 3 months ago. Rumours say that Stephen K. Lee got fired over this issue, in addition to others. If your dealer told you otherwise, you need to have a chat with them.