M9 and long exposures (not)

[Steve Fines]

Hello,

I was going to try some star trails last night with the M9 and frustrated as even with the Bulb setting and cable release the shutter kept closing at 250 sec.

I assumed that the cable slipped, that I had accidentally hit it, etc., until about the third time.

Digging out the manual the long exposure limit with this camera is listed as 240 sec.

I could live with a short break to write the file and then doing another 240s exposure, except there isn't a way (that I've found) to turn off the dark frame subtraction.

So it seems that this camera is limited to a 4 minute exposure. The "B" on the exposure dial strikes me as a touch misleading.

Any idea why that would be the case? Any ideas to get around it? Sorry if this was all hashed out when the M8 came out, but I missed that discussion.

thanks,

 

[weinschela]

Hello,

I was going to try some star trails last night with the M9 and frustrated as even with the Bulb setting and cable release the shutter kept closing at 250 sec.

I assumed that the cable slipped, that I had accidentally hit it, etc., until about the third time.

Digging out the manual the long exposure limit with this camera is listed as 240 sec.

I could live with a short break to write the file and then doing another 240s exposure, except there isn't a way (that I've found) to turn off the dark frame subtraction.

So it seems that this camera is limited to a 4 minute exposure. The "B" on the exposure dial strikes me as a touch misleading.

Any idea why that would be the case? Any ideas to get around it? Sorry if this was all hashed out when the M8 came out, but I missed that discussion.

thanks,

Someone posted here or on LUF that there is a "T" setting. I think it is using B with the self timer and supposedly keeps the shutter open until the release is pressed a second time (like old style "T" setting). The way to do this is in the manual somewhere (I don't have a M9 or manual (8-(). You might want to check. It would be good to know whether there is a 240 sec limit there as well. I'd like to know because when I get my M9 I was hoping that start trails could be done. Some limits of course because no ac adapter and the battery will be a limiting factor, but 6 minutes is pretty short.

 

[Steve Fines]

Hello,

Good idea.

Just tried that - set the exposure to B and used the timer.

Shutter closed itself at 250 sec.

 

[Arjuna]

from an M9 instruction manual pdf that I have, page labeled 140, but pdf page 54 of 92:

B setting / T function
The B setting keeps the shutter open for as long as the shutter release button remains pressed (up to a maximum of 240s). In conjunction with the self timer, a T function is also available: If you set B and activate the self timer by tapping the shutter release button (see also p. 157), the shutter opens automatically after the selected delay time. It then remains open until you press the shutter release button a second time – you do not need to hold the button down. This enables you to largely prevent any blurring caused by pressing the shutter release button, even with long exposures.
In both cases, the exposure meter is disabled; after the shutter is released however, the digital display in the viewfinder shows the expired time in seconds for guidance.
Notes:
• Long exposures can be associated with very heavy picture noise.
• To reduce this annoying phenomenon, following pictures with longer exposures (from around 1/30 s, differing depending on the other menu settings), the LEICA M9 automatically takes a second “black picture” (taken with the shutter closed). The noise
measured in this parallel picture is then digitally “subtracted” from the data set for the real picture.
• This doubling of the “exposure” time must be allowed for with long exposures. The camera should not be switched off during this time.
• For shutter speeds above 2 s, the message Noise reduction in progress 12s (Time quoted is an example only) appears in the monitor.

 

[Steve Fines]

from an M9 instruction manual pdf that I have, page labeled 140, but pdf page 54 of 92:
It then remains open until you press the shutter release button a second time – you do not need to hold the button down.

I have the paper manual as well. It says this, but it is not true.

With B mode and the self timer the shutter closes after 250 sec.

 

[jeffreytotaro]

Long exposures with digital cameras has always been an issue. Leaf digital backs time out after about 30 seconds. I shoot also with a Phase One P45+ and this back allows very long exposures of up to an hour (I think in reality about 45 Min), but costs $33K. I think we are lucky that M9 could do 4 minutes. This is also a benefit of Kodak CCD sensors over those made by Dalsa (used in the P65+ back which can do only 30 seconds as well and costs $40K). Maybe they could improve this with a firmware update.

 

[Maarten]

As far as I understood it it is because the CCD otherwise becomes to hot. I'm not sure if this is really true, but in my Nikon the maximum time you can use the live view option is also set because of this reason.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Here is a p30+ for 35 minutes. Monument valley. The P45+ will go a full hour but yes heat will play a part the better cooler ambient temperatures the longer you can go. Now this was 35 minutes for the exposure than another 35 minutes for a dark frame. The M8's we just put back in the bag when it comes to this type of work. I have done a lot of 30 second exposure on the M8 but not past that myself. The M9 will be no different really at least in this area. This was pretty much in total darkness at around 11 pm . Now another trick is face east or west because the sun revolves that way and the star trails take less time. North and South facing is going to be longer because the earth does not rotate that way. Interesting tidbit

 

[jph]

This may be a work around.
Basically, you take several photographs (under 250 seconds) and use this software to merge them. I don't use it because I have a mac and this is only PC. I have see results from people that do though, and it seems to work well.

http://www.startrails.de/html/software.html

Jim

 

[Steve Fines]

This may be a work around.
Basically, you take several photographs (under 250 seconds) and use this software to merge them. I don't use it because I have a mac and this is only PC. I have see results from people that do though, and it seems to work well.

http://www.startrails.de/html/software.html

Jim

Jim,

Great idea. As I stated in the first post I'd be willing to do this - a one or two second break in between 240 sec exposures is no big deal.

However, after the 240 sec exposure the M9 wants to do a 240 sec "dark field subtraction" for noise reduction. As it stands this is not an option that one can turn off.

I would much prefer to be able to do a series of 240 sec exposures and then handle the NR on my PC later, but it seems this will not be possible without a firmware change.

 

[jph]

Sorry Steve, I missed that. It looks like 2 seconds max. You would have to stack a ton of images. Just not practical.
Jim

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Jim,

Great idea. As I stated in the first post I'd be willing to do this - a one or two second break in between 240 sec exposures is no big deal.

However, after the 240 sec exposure the M9 wants to do a 240 sec "dark field subtraction" for noise reduction. As it stands this is not an option that one can turn off.

I would much prefer to be able to do a series of 240 sec exposures and then handle the NR on my PC later, but it seems this will not be possible without a firmware change.

Steve I think most cameras able to do long exposures will provide a dark frame. At least that is what I thought. I know Kodak CCD sensors do

 

[Peter Klein]

This looks like a job for film. Or, get out your tank of liquid nitrogen and your Acme Sensor Cooler kit.
--Peter

 

[Steve Fines]

Steve I think most cameras able to do long exposures will provide a dark frame. At least that is what I thought. I know Kodak CCD sensors do

My Nikon 300s, D3x, Canon 1dsmk3, 5D, 40D and 10D all could do indefinite exposures. With all of them the dark frame was an option - could be on or off.

The level of noise with these (2-5h exposures, iso 200 or 400) was generally very acceptable. With the d3x and 1dsm3 it was excellent.

I'll write Leica about this. Being able to toggle the dark frame on/off really seems a much more sensible way to handle NR and long exposures.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Thanks Steve , must be age setting in I am forgetting half those cameras I owned. LOL

 

[nostatic]

My Nikon 300s, D3x, Canon 1dsmk3, 5D, 40D and 10D all could do indefinite exposures. With all of them the dark frame was an option - could be on or off.

The level of noise with these (2-5h exposures, iso 200 or 400) was generally very acceptable. With the d3x and 1dsm3 it was excellent.

I'll write Leica about this. Being able to toggle the dark frame on/off really seems a much more sensible way to handle NR and long exposures.

This has been a sticking point with current Pentax bodies as well - can't turn off DFS.

 

[Knorp]

Hello,

Good idea.

Just tried that - set the exposure to B and used the timer.

Shutter closed itself at 250 sec.

Tried this with my M8 and 1.4/50 @1.4 and got bored after 10min or so (725sec in fact) and hit the release button
But honestly I don't think this T-procedure is very pratical as it drains the battery like crazy :shocked:

 

[RichEdg]

Hi

I have been following this thread with interest. I like the look of star trail photographs and want to try them. I have just come across an interesting movie by Russell Brown on how to combine short 118s duration images into a long star trail image in Photoshop CS4 (you may need the Extended version).

http://av.adobe.com/russellbrown/NewStackAMatic_SM.mov

Its an interesting movie (but over 15mb) and he mentions about why its better to do a series of short long exposures rather than one very long exposure to capture star trails. The only problem is that the M8 and M9 have mandatory dark frame processing that doubles the time of an exposure so it may not be easy to use the process that Russell is advocating.

I was one of the lucky 3 people to get an M9 in New Zealand and I am loving it even if it does front focus with my 75 and 90mm lenses (shorter focal lengths appear to focus well)! I am luck to still have an M8.2 that works with all lenses.

Cheers

Richard