Need help with M8 issue

[fotografz]

Hi all,

I recently sold a beautiful silver M8 to a fellow overseas and upon arrival it is acting up. Maybe someone here can help zero in on what's wrong. I got the camera from a forum member and as far as I know it worked fine for him.

The camera always worked perfectly for me ... and I checked it just before shipping. Then removed the battery, boxed it all up in the Leica factory box inside a well packed shipping box and sent it off. Just prior to that I shot a wedding with it with no issues at all.

Now that it has arrived it appears it will not meter correctly. Apparently in dark conditions using two different 3rd party lenses (Canon Serenar f/1.9 and a 75mm Heliar) wide open @ most any ISO, the M8 either does a 32 second exposure in dim light, or overexposes a stop or two. In lower light with the light source in the frame it overexposes 1-2 stops, if the light source isn't in the frame it goes to a 16 or 32 second exposure.

We pulled the battery and recharged it, reset the camera to default factory settings, even re-loaded the firmware. No joy.

None of the obvious user errors apply ... the new owner shot with a Epson rangefinder prior to this.

The only thing unusual that happened was when he first got it, and went to put the battery in without a lens on it (body cap on), he accidently tripped the shutter, then turned it off to stop it. But that shouldn't have caused this issue should it?

Any idea what could have happened? :wtf:

Any experience with something like this, or speculation what could have gone wrong out of the blue?

Any thoughts welcome.

Thanks in advance,

-Marc

 

[docmoore]

Marc,

I assume that the normal brightness scenes are well exposed and not over or underexposed from your description.

Has the new owner tried any mode other than AE...in other words does the meter give correct exposure settings when metering manually in darker conditions. Is there any indication that the shutter was affected by the body cap incident? I would think not as the cap probably does not intrude as much as a few of the wider angle lenses.

I would recommend another attempt at reinstalling firmware...no idea how such a limited set of exposure setting could fail in this manner...unless meter now is very much less sensitive to low light conditions. I assume that if this were the case manually metering would show a problem.

The resolution will be interesting.

Bob

 

[robertwright]

has the new owner checked to make sure the shutter is acting normally, taking the lens off and watching the shutter, perhaps that first accidental firing has left one of the blades with the white out of whack, or there is something over the sensor inside the throat?

does the camera remember the date when left without a battery-perhaps the internal battery has gone dead? don't know what effect that would have tho.

and the camera meters normally in average light?

 

[cam]

where overseas? anywhere maybe someone of can take a look and trouble-shoot in person?

 

[francishmt]

Check the metering stripe to make sure nothing is covering it.

 

[fotografz]

This is a real head banger :banghead:

Yes, the camera exposes fine in normal daylight. But when in lower ambient indoor light it reverts to 16 or 32 sec. exposures producing a gross over-exposure. Manually trying to meter it, the viewfinder LCD arrows can never be brought to center in the lower light scenario. Which it never did for me.

I've never heard of such a thing, ever. :wtf:

The manual indicates that if the lighting is such that it is out of the metering range this will happen, but from the buyer's description it doesn't sound like the ambient room light is THAT low.

Could it be a shutter timing issue? Faster times being okay, but slower times not. Being electronic, it seems far fetched.

The shipping box was unharmed and showed no signs of tampering. Could exposure to a static charge during shipping have caused this?

How could the meter work in normal light levels and not even close at all in lower light? It can't be something obstructing the light path since it works in regular light.

The buyer is in the Philippines. Of course the camera is out of warranty. Is there a M8 authorized service center anywhere in the East, like in Japan?

Thanks for helping us so far guys ... any other thoughts?

-Marc

 

[wattsy]

Sounds weird. That the camera meters okay in daylight makes it even weirder. I'd be inclined to ask the buyer to return the camera for a refund. It's possible that user error is involved and the thing will seem fine when it's returned but it does sound like a fault. Either way one or both of you are going to be out some shipping costs but that's the nature of doing business over the internet. On the basis that time is money, it may be cheaper to ask for the return rather than continue to spend time trying to troubleshoot the issue.

 

[thinkfloyd]

Hi, I'm the buyer in question, and yes, it does seem weird that it meters fine in great light, but overexposes like mad indoors or at night. I have been a photographer for 12 years, though admittedly a rangefinder user for just 1, and I have exhausted all possibilities to get the camera to work right. I never had this problem with my SLRs, DSLRs or RD-1. And I cannot understand why this is so. I really wish I can record a video of what's happening, to give you guys an idea of what is happening. (But I have no video recorder of any kind...)

 

[carstenw]

I have been reading this thread, with no idea what the problem is.

If you point the camera at a bright light, and expose, and move it smoothly to a dark area, taking shots the whole time, do you at any point see a jump in the values?

 

[thinkfloyd]

yep. If I point the camera at a bulb it'll show 1/2000, slowly pointing it away, it'll go to 1/500, which still makes sense. But if the bulb is off the viewfinder, or even just in the corner, it jumps to around 1/8 which overexposes but I can still see some detail in the image. A little further then it becomes 2 secs. A little more, even if the scene is without shadows, the meter jumps to 16-32 secs. If I manually set the shutter to get a proper exposure where the meter says 32 secs, I get a perfectly (at least based on the histogram) exposed shot at 1/8. 1/8 to 32 seconds is not a normal misread by any meter, nor is it a tolerable difference... very very weird.

 

[robertwright]

maybe you need to find a white wall and shoot it at different times of the day on Aperture priority. Use a meter to get the incident value. The camera should produce a series of grey walls no matter what. Or shoot a large grey card. An incident meter should give you the same values as the camera no matter what, and the image should be grey. (within some tolerance).

if the camera cannot reproduce this simple scenario the meter is not working correctly. Or perhaps you can isolate it to Aperture priority only.

you didn't say what the serenar was, but the other voigtlander is a telephoto- considering the M8's metering patch this is averaging-biased. A bright source in the frame is going to have a disproportionate effect. so is a dark object. And given that low light tends to exist indoors or at night, both subjects tend towards extremes, the kind that would skew an averaging meter into weird exposures. Daytime exposures and general subjects will do just fine on an averaging meter.

try the grey card and or white wall. If you can't get decent exposures the meter is whacked.

 

[thinkfloyd]

Ok, here are some test shots taken with the camera using A mode with a 75 heliar...

Out the window (both wide open):

On the balcony:
f8

f8

f2.5

You can see whether it's wide open or stopped down, the camera sometimes overexposes. Weirdly, when stopped down, all the more so...

 

[thinkfloyd]

Now indoors, all wide open using A mode. I was virtually in the same spot the whole time:

moving a little further down from the top pic (you can make out one shoe from the first picture)

then a little further down still, you can make out the shoe rack on the upper left side

to compare, here are two shots taken at 1/30 for reference.

second shot of the top series:

third shot of the top series:

Sorry for the subject matter and blurriness. This is to show how the meter acts weirdly and how it jumps in exposure even if it moves just a bit... BTW, further still from the scene, the image is all white. Nothing is discernible.

 

[Ario Arioldi]

Have you checked the exif data? may be from there you can get an indication about what is wrong.
Even better if you can use an exif reader capable to read the camera maker info.
Cheers,
Ario

 

[carstenw]

This looks more and more like Leica needs to have a look at it. I have had some slightly odd metering results from time to time, but nothing of this magnitude.

 

[K3N]

It appears that your camera overexposes in dark conditions or when you stop down which reduces the light going into the camera.

Is it possible that the lenses you're using are sitting very far inside and part of the lens shroud is blocking the meter from reading off the shutter. I think this was a problem with some Hologon lenses.

The other possible issue is that something is covering the light meter that is on the bottom of the chamber or it has become dislodged/damaged during shipping.

 

[wattsy]

The other possible issue is that something is covering the light meter that is on the bottom of the chamber or it has become dislodged/damaged during shipping.

That's my suspicion. It seems that there is a light level beneath which the meter can't meter at all and it behaves as if you've put the lens cap on.

 

[thinkfloyd]

How can I inspect if something is blocking the meter? Also, I am using a canon 50/1.9 serenar and heliar 75, do these lenses have problems with metering on an M8?

 

[carstenw]

The Heliar 75 should be fine, I would expect. I don't know about the Canon. Do they stick far into the body?

The light is metered by reflecting off the grey/white stripe on the shutter curtain onto a small sensor situated at the bottom, recessed. Is there anything blocking? Is the stripe visible at all times?

 

[thinkfloyd]

I just checked the camera, and the grey/white stripe is visible and the recessed "bulb-like" sensor is clear of debris and looks ok. If the Heliar is fine, the Canon is too since the Heliar stick into the body deeper than the Canon. I just purchased a Canon 50/1.2 off here, and might get it tomorrow or wednesday. I'll try the camera with it as well. Unless Leica HK and Taiwan responds to my queries and I send the camera in for repair...