Leica R looking forward

[PeterA]

The simplest thing for the MD to do was to confirm that the new R series camera would in fact be engineered to make existing lenses compatible.

Why hasn't he?

I can understand that Leica would want to start a fresh page with all the bells and whistles that anyone could want and maybe this would make it impossible to maintain backwards compatibility - ala Canon's move from F mount to EOS..
note how many coulds and woulds involved in above?

The more I think about the lack of clarity or guarantee or certainty regarding this issue - the less I like it...I have a LOT of Leica R glass that may soon be irrelevant.

Leica have spent a LOT of energy making the M8 'upgradeable' - and NOT ONE IOTA OF COMFORT TO R USERS on the one BASIC issue we are all confronted with - namely lens compatibility.

Any thoughts on the issue?

 

[LCT]

The R's user base is the only one Leica can count on for its FF (or more than FF) DSLR in the first place. Loosing backward compatibility would be the best way to loose this user base as well in favour of Canon, Nikon, or Sony and its forthcoming 25mpix DSLR. I guess Leica has not decided on important details yet, like selling adapter rings or mounting new bayonets on existing lenses, in so far as the R-mount will be changed of course.

 

[robmac]

Peter, I think you've answered your own question.

The company, right or wrong, is treating the R line as a non-core or side-line business. To take on Nikon et al would require shifting massive amounts of manpower, $$ and management focus away from the M line - just to make an ATTEMPT at market success with the R_ -- and with NO hope of ever becoming a top-4 player in that segment

I would consider the information void you discuss re: lenses (and a body) as a clear warning of disappointing news to come in the form of any of the following: no easy lens compatibility (*caveat below), a weak (from a user perspective) attempt at SLR re-penetration with a PanaLeica unit driven by Panasonic, a concept camera only (I paraphrase "...we'll show a HINT of what to expect..."), etc .

The MD as you mention would have nothing to lose by mentioning 'no worries' re: older lenses. Used prices would go up, orders from retailers at least continue to move R inventory, and they would keep a LOT or R users/owners in the brand until they saw a body.

However, if they even suggest no backward compatibility (* caveat: or don't know if they'll have a workable, e.g. financially beneficial, solution yet) - a lot of owners would be gone to N/C/S in anger 5 minutes after the interview and orders from retailers would stop as used prices plunged.

I LOVE Leica glass, but the moment I saw that interview, I started selling all but my least expensive. I can't/won't afford holding onto a lot (for me) of costly hard to shift lenses that could drop in price and become even harder to shift. I'd rather limit my exposure - and risk buying back a smaller number of (maybe) more costly or same-cost (some folks will always hate any new camera) units at higher prices if all this is much ado about nothing.

However, remember in the movies when the hero says ".... that's the problem Bob, it's TOO quiet...."

 

[PeterA]

LCT - I think/hope you are correct, I really do..then I sak myself...if they really believed this - why not relax everyone..the company is being purposefully vague and avoiding..

robmac - I just have an itchy feeling in my bones - in my line of business this usually leads me to cut and run ..or even short..I guess you have a hedge in place...

 

[dfarkas]

However, remember in the movies when the hero says ".... that's the problem Bob, it's TOO quiet...."

Well, there's an obscure movie quote.... Real Men with Jim Belushi and John Ritter. Classic campy fun.

To address the R issue... We can approach it two ways.

The first is looking at Leica's history and business/product philosophy. Look at how the R system has maintaied compatibility to date. 2 cam lenses are able to be updated to 3 cams to work on modern cameras. 3 cam lenses can be upgraded to ROM to use the features of the R8 and R9/DMR. Leica just released this past year an adapter for R lenses to work on 4/3 system cameras like the Digilux 3. You can extrapolate and say that support is imminent, as they have never done anything to the contrary.

The second approach is from a a foward looking perspective. Can Leica survice the DSLR wars without a fully-modern camera system. A lot of people criticized Canon for going to the EF mount. It allowed them to take technological leaps and bounds at the time. Some went to Nikon, but in the long run they gained significant, if not dominant market share. Nikon, of course, is putting the pedal to the metal and really delivering some truly outstanding products right now. They are the ones to beat.

As I've said before I believe the true strengths of Leica are quality, build, and simple ergonomics. The DMR delivers amazing quality that I have not seen from any other 35mm DLSR system to date. My mind reels with the possibility of a quantumn leap forward in IQ with the R10. If that means that I can use the existing and extraordinary R lens lineup, fantastic! If it means that I can get truly revolutionary quality with new lenses, that is a sacrifice I am willing to make. I expect the quality to be so far superior to the N/C offerings that a switch out of spite would be "cut off my nose to spite my face" kind of move.

This is my 2 cents.

David

 

[glenerrolrd]

Well, there's an obscure movie quote.... Real Men with Jim Belushi and John Ritter. Classic campy fun.

To address the R issue... We can approach it two ways.

The first is looking at Leica's history and business/product philosophy. Look at how the R system has maintaied compatibility to date. 2 cam lenses are able to be updated to 3 cams to work on modern cameras. 3 cam lenses can be upgraded to ROM to use the features of the R8 and R9/DMR. Leica just released this past year an adapter for R lenses to work on 4/3 system cameras like the Digilux 3. You can extrapolate and say that support is imminent, as they have never done anything to the contrary.

The second approach is from a a foward looking perspective. Can Leica survice the DSLR wars without a fully-modern camera system. A lot of people criticized Canon for going to the EF mount. It allowed them to take technological leaps and bounds at the time. Some went to Nikon, but in the long run they gained significant, if not dominant market share. Nikon, of course, is putting the pedal to the metal and really delivering some truly outstanding products right now. They are the ones to beat.

As I've said before I believe the true strengths of Leica are quality, build, and simple ergonomics. The DMR delivers amazing quality that I have not seen from any other 35mm DLSR system to date. My mind reels with the possibility of a quantumn leap forward in IQ with the R10. If that means that I can use the existing and extraordinary R lens lineup, fantastic! If it means that I can get truly revolutionary quality with new lenses, that is a sacrifice I am willing to make. I expect the quality to be so far superior to the N/C offerings that a switch out of spite would be "cut off my nose to spite my face" kind of move.

This is my 2 cents.

David

I believe that Leica has an exceptionally difficult challenge with the R series. To compete ..they really have to define the category as they do with the M8. They can not compete on broad scale against Nikon/Canon/Sony. They may be able to carve out a small market of pro s and enthusiasts that can afford the expense. The R series has always been multiples more expensive than nikon and canon. The new challenge is the "good enough" catagory.....you can see this in plasma tvs , autos and lots of electronics. Can you really use the increased capabilities of the high end products ...in most cases ..."no" but if its cool enough I can convince myself ...thats its a necessity. If I was designing the solution it would be to do final assembly and QC in Wetzler(Solms will be gone ) but lean heavily on outsourcing to keep the costs down. I don t think they intend to do this..so the design team has one heck of a challenge to design a solution that can be "made in Germany" , best in class IQ and at a price point that will attract both existing and new customers. I would expect that Lee might have had a quite different POV that the traditional Leica model. I read the interview as a real hedge on commitment for Photokina . I would bet that they will only be ready with a concept prototype and that they are a year away from having a real offering in the market. Nobody will be happier than me if I can get an R10 by Christmas.

 

[robmac]

Some great comments here.

Peter - I spent my formative years working in a classified special projects (aka 'ego-projects') group for the CEO of a well known tech firm and then the bulk of my career as a financial analyst on the 'Street' so I hear where you're coming from.

Every spider sense I have is screaming we are in for a let down. It's like the movie grunt in Vietnam with the 1000 yard stare. After you've been in a charged environment long enough you just develop a sixth sense when things just don't bode well.

That being, I'll be happy to be proven wrong.

 

[LCT]

LCT - I think/hope you are correct, I really do..then I sak myself...if they really believed this - why not relax everyone...

Difficult to say of course but my guess is Leica has not decided on the 'details' i was referring to above yet. It would then be too soon to relax us so far. Now i don't mind if R users sell their lenses to be honest since i have still a 19mm Elmarit to buy and i'd like s/h prices to drop a lot more. C'mon guys!

 

[EH21]

Wow am I on the fence - should I take advantage of the uncertainty and buy the lenses not in my R lineup or should I sell everything before the big drop. I was going to just sell my DMR but I just realized something - if there is a R10 and it doesn't support the current R glass then the DMR is the only game in town for those with R glass and these will be hard to find so I guess that's the last thing I should sell.

 

[gogopix]

Wow am I on the fence - should I take advantage of the uncertainty and buy the lenses not in my R lineup or should I sell everything before the big drop. I was going to just sell my DMR but I just realized something - if there is a R10 and it doesn't support the current R glass then the DMR is the only game in town for those with R glass and these will be hard to find so I guess that's the last thing I should sell.

or any 1D canon and 5D for many non WA

BTW, I find it hard to fault the dmr...maybe ill pick up another

anybody jumping ship willing to part with a mint R9/dmr

victor

 

[PeterA]

Victor - I'd sell you my whole kit @90cents in the dollar I paid recently...everything is mint or better. How's that for a call?

 

[woodyspedden]

Victor - I'd sell you my whole kit @90cents in the dollar I paid recently...everything is mint or better. How's that for a call?

Victor

If I were you I would sure hang on for six months to see what happens. It is hard to imagine that leica would abandon their legacy R lenses in hopes that there will be enough in a new system to attract the number of buyers they will need to make a new R system a success. Those of us who invested in the R system spent a virtual fortune on the glass and leica know that. I understand the paranoia that surrounds this (given my personal investment in R lenses) but the more business minded side of me says they won't go that route. JMHO

Best

Woody

 

[fotografz]

Interesting perspectives.

In almost all of my "camera dealings", since digital came on line, have been to maximize usefulness, while minimizing financial exposure (if that can be done with camera gear).

So I buy early in the product cycle at a deep discount, put it to good use, and sell at a maximum just before the next wave.

Leica R gear has never fit that pattern, and I've never expected it to. It's far more of a personal tool with unique characteristics. It is what it is, and I have never confused it with Canon or Nikon which produce images that are nothing like what the R system produces. Other than the now defunct Contax C/Y gear, the R is the only game in town if you want a precision, manual focus 35mm system.

Even in the days of film, who among you ever confused a Leica R with a Nikon or Canon AF SLR? So, IMO, Leica need not concern themselves with what Canon or Nikon lovers what or don't want. It's ALWAYS been a select and discerning few who go their own way and use a R as a tool rather than an "investment."

Now IF Leica should add focus confirmation and a FF sensor to a R10 that'd be really nice. If they abandon the current lens mount, I can only hope that everyone flips out and initially dumps their R gear at a deep discount, and that DMRs flood the market ... 'cause I need a 19/2.8 ROM and would immediately snap up another DMR/9 ... it's like nothing out there even now, and IMO that includes all the latest greatest.

 

[fotografz]

Victor - I'd sell you my whole kit @90cents in the dollar I paid recently...everything is mint or better. How's that for a call?

So my friend, how much for the DMR/9 and a 19/2.8 ROM if you have them : -)

 

[LCT]

Another 19/2.8 buyer? Will make prices jump that... Oh well...

 

[fotografz]

A patient 19/2.8 buyer. If prices jump, I won't : -)

 

[PeterA]

You guys are killing me

Let me just say that I am generally IN a system entirely OR out - entirely.

As indicated in the post - I am getting the feeling that our existing R lenses may NOT be compatible with the new Leica SLR. The company has gone out of its way to almost encourage that concern.

I have decided that I dont need my Canon gear - so I sold it all. Same thing for Leica DMR - if I could sell it ALL in one hit I would @90cent in the dollar I paid. BUT I have no interest in selling off any individual lens.

I would love Leica to come out and put this issue of backwards ( lens) compatibiity to rest sooner rather than later - then I would keep everything a per original plan. I am an unashamed Leic nut - but have no interest in dead end systems.

Hope this clarifies my concerns and thinking.

 

[LCT]

...if I could sell it ALL in one hit I would @90cent in the dollar I paid. BUT I have no interest in selling off any individual lens...

The s/h market is not that high any more i'm afraid.
I've bought eight mostly mint 3-cam lenses for USD 3.5K last year and latest prices i've found out on eBay for mint ROM lenses were USD 630 for a 50/2, USD 1.5K for a 35/2, USD 2.5K for a 19/2.8 and same for a 180/2.8 APO # 11273.
Still too high for me as a buyer but like my grand mother said never sell a Leica lens. Canikon will make the same when...

 

[fotografz]

You guys are killing me

Let me just say that I am generally IN a system entirely OR out - entirely.

As indicated in the post - I am getting the feeling that our existing R lenses may NOT be compatible with the new Leica SLR. The company has gone out of its way to almost encourage that concern.

I have decided that I dont need my Canon gear - so I sold it all. Same thing for Leica DMR - if I could sell it ALL in one hit I would @90cent in the dollar I paid. BUT I have no interest in selling off any individual lens.

I would love Leica to come out and put this issue of backwards ( lens) compatibiity to rest sooner rather than later - then I would keep everything a per original plan. I am an unashamed Leic nut - but have no interest in dead end systems.

Hope this clarifies my concerns and thinking.

Crystal Peter, crystal clear.

Precisely why I liquidated the Leaf Aptus and Mamiya. Great system, fab back, but went Hassey H as the focus ... supporting two MF systems was becoming crazy expensive.

If Leica abandons current R users, it'll be a whole new ball game. DSLRs are important to my paying work. The R system doesn't figure prominently there ... so if they go multiple cross type AF points with Leica quality optics, and a bigger, higher ISO sensor it'll be my Canon system that may take the hit ... and the DMR/9 plus current R Lenses that becomes a "curiosity" that I goof around with. It still takes amazing images.

Leica is selling off many demo R lenses, I mean a LOT of them. I wonder if that is some sign?

 

[PeterA]

Crystal Peter, crystal clear.


Leica is selling off many demo R lenses, I mean a LOT of them. I wonder if that is some sign?

umm I guess you may have a point there Marc...perhaps we are both making teh same point ( nicely):angel:

re Leaf - Hasselblad have done everyone a favour 'forcing' the issue with their bodies moving to closed end. I bought and waited for the AFi after being told that my Leaf back would go on that - which has ended up being BS so I owe Leaf nothing/nada/zippo :wtf:... I tested the SinarHy6 and I prefer the blad body and lenses - and I don't like the clunky Sinar software.

It is down to either Phase One or Imacon for me ..and given the number of Fujiblad lenses I own ...looks like that 31 or 39 megapixel puppy in blad guise is next on my switch into agenda..:bugeyes:

I agree the DMR/R9 makes great pics so I am happy to wait and play - I know the new Leica DSLR is going to blow CaNikon away ..but get ready for BIG dollar outlays on camera and lenses ...might be fun.