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Leica R looking forward

doug

Well-known member
Let's not forget that whatever language Herr Kaufmann was interviewed in, it was edited in German before translation to English. Having seen what happens in these circumstances (my LFI interview) it's safe to assume that some of the finer nuances were lost in the translation. I believe it's unwise to read too much into what Herr Kaufmann did or did not say in the interview.

IMHO the responses I've seen on this and other forums to Herr Kaumann's interview illustrate for me what every politician knows: fear is a much more powerful motivator than is reason.
 

PeterA

Well-known member
Doug - the problem with your analogy is that MD's should NOT scare their customers...

A simple 'relax' your R lenses will work on whatever we bring/ whenever we bring it out is all that is required to settle nerves amongst cutomers and user base - how hard is that? Is that too much to ask for?

Pete
 
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pascal_meheut

Guest
I agree with Peter. If he plans to continue the R system or at least to ensure some good compatibility like Nikon or Pentax, why not say it ?
The DMR is still an excellent camera but I would like to see some evolutions: better high-iso, bigger screen and faster image review, better AWB...
Not to mention a smaller and lighter body and maybe some new lenses (maybe some AF ones...)

But Dr Kaufmann leaves the door open to all speculations. If he plans to abandon the R, I can understand it. But if not, this is not the best way to communicate.

BTW, I'm selling my DMR and some glasses (15/2.8, 35/2, 135/2.8, 280/4) but keeping many others R lenses and a film body. Mainly because I do not use it anymore since I have the M8 and prefer film to shoot B&W.
 

LCT

Member
...A simple 'relax' your R lenses will work on whatever we bring/ whenever we bring it out is all that is required to settle nerves amongst cutomers and user base...
If Kaufmann had said that, he would have exposed Leica to litigation in the likely case where lenses won't be 100% compatible with the forthcoming body.
 

robmac

Well-known member
The problem is that IF a working camera were due anywhere near this Fall, they would KNOW at this juncture if the existing glass would work with it - either via common mount or an adapter, or Allah forbid, a Solm-only upgrade.

Given that people would be fine with simple 'dumb' compatibility (same physical mount, ROM recognition in EXIF, FC), the mount design, such an integral component of the body's form factor, would have been decided on Page 1 of the PowerPoint proposal package for the R10.

R10 Form Factor Tiger Team : (Session 1, Hour 1) : Sensor size? Built-in portrait grip? Size of rear screen? Mount diameter? Registration depth? Built-in Flash? LiO or Nicad battery?

It's not as if they design the beast, then sit back over a stein mere months away from release and someone bright spark goes, "Oh Ingrid, what mount (diameter, mechanics, electronics, ROM recognition...) are we using for this sucker anyway?"

The in-house software, materials, mold-design, optical (for the new glass), packaging, manufacturing layout/flow, etc., engineers, not to mention those within the various parts suppliers, their Solm-based buyers etc., (the list would go on for pages) would all HAVE to know early the BASICS of the mount diameter, mechanics and electronic connections.

This is especially the case today where DSLR designers are optimizing glass performance via in-camera tweaking during the capture process.
The software engineers would need to know early in the design process if they were needing to include in-camera correction of ANY degree (or even lens recognition) for existing ROM lenses for CA, vignetting, etc., as per the H3D.

MOST IMPORTANTLY: Any Board preso for approval of the R10 line would include anticipated NPV or hurdle rate analysis. This is the Go/No-Go Time that has Product Managers being especially nice to the firm's finance types. I mean REALLY nice.

That go/no-go analysis package would have been started with a simple financial model (a virtual R10 created within Excel, etc) detailing each and every part of one R10. The parts list would be regardless of importance or cost (from sensor to lens cap and foam packaging) and would include the number of each part required per body, the standard cost of each part + a detailed labor study showing the standard labor cost expected to manufacture and package 1 body.

The R10 model would be grossed-up for anticipated volumes and pricing by region, etc. If more than one body is planned (say R10 and R10 Lite), a model would be done for each and an 'average' R10 produced/sold would be virtually created using weighted average sales numbers/pricing by region by model expected. This gross-up would include an expectation of the average number of accessories sold per camera body. Each accessory would, in turn, have its own Excel 'virtual' model.

The financial types don't sleep a lot for some months and have been known to tell of waking up on the sofa -- reaching for a keyboard.

These models are updated on a regular basis pre-launch (assuming approval) during various 'gating stages' (further go/no go points to check that nothing has gone South since approval) and at least 1/year post-launch during standard costing and variance analysis at the plant(s).

Note: This averaging actually gets some players in serious trouble if the expected Wavg 'R10' model sold differs from the sales reality. Costs variances go wonky, and margins get reamed.

In short, if a camera is coming any time soon, they KNOW the mount solution now.

So.... either:
a) no working camera
b) no working camera any time soon
c) no compatibility (an ugly visualization)
d) a solution that is going to PO a lot of folks (why tell them now?)
e) all is fine, but Kaufmann (sic?) is a masochist
 
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LCT

Member
...So.... either: a) no working camera b) no compatibility (an ugly visualization) or c) a solution that is going to PO a lot of folks.
Or Leica has not yed decided on 'details' like will they offer a perpetual upgrade a la M8 for current R lenses, or the possibility to change the bayonet, or an unique or many adapter rings and so on...
 

dhsimmonds

New member
In his LFI interview, Kaufmann says "The R is a beautiful camera but todays market gives preference to other products". I interpret that as the R system is now obsolete "I can assure you that we have every intention of leaving a mark in the single lens reflex sector, but that's all I can say for now." I interpret that as we will produce another DSLR capable of competing with others in the market, but at a cost as it will be capable of superior images. If this is right then Leica will also need to develop a whole new range of A/F lenses and that will take time.......longer than they have to the next Photokina!

One thing does seem clear to me, they certainly burnt their fingers in the 4/3 sensor market with their D3 and now with the E-3 selling and capable of providing sensor image stabilisation and possibly even focus confirmation with heritage R lenses, Leica would have a long way to go to compete!
 

robmac

Well-known member
LCT - maybe true, but that is detail that would not drive the behavior we are seeing.

A simple response to the question - "R users need no be worried, the R__ will honor their existing investment in Leica optics". No 'how' need be discussed if something other than a straight R mount is designed-in.

No one will get twisted if all they need do is snap on an encoded adapter on each of their existing R lenses.

This would require a deeper lens registration on the new body, but would be a HELL of a lot smarter idea optically (no pun intended) and financially than some convoluted 'send them to Solms' mount upgrade BS.
 

robmac

Well-known member
Well put Dave.

There is also the 'risk' (for some) that 'leaving a mark' means a beefed-up PanaLeica (or SamsunLeica or ___Leica) compact unit, priced for mass (for Leica) sales with an R mount or adapter-enabled R mount. A lot of mid-level or next-step DSLRS have left a lot of good 'marks' on the industry.

This is my gut-feel pet theory (if a camera comes to pass) and would explain the push that many have heard the firm expects to make at Photokina - and the odd behavior. Such a move would PO as many people as it would keep happy.

Such a solution would lean heavily on Panasonic (or insert partner name here) manufacturing, design & distribution, allowing Leica to focus on their modest (relatively speaking) resources where they dominate - the "flagship" (their words) M line.

Leica seems intent to push various forms (high and low end) of "M" into more hands ASAP and keep them there. Trying to do that from a $$$'s and management bandwidth point of view while kicking Canon, Nikon, Sony and maybe the low-end MFDB camps in the knees (which is all you could do in terms of sales volumes) with the stupefying associated costs that would mean a lack of focus and critical mass of resources for either line just when they need it the most.

The volumes at that 'PanaLeica' price point (assuming some new Summaritesque modified-R lenses) would funnel 'cheap' low-risk $$$ into Solm with minimal risk and avoid killing the R optics line. Good idea? From a financial perspective, yes. From a legacy and marketing one? Not so much. That being said, $$$'s is $$$'s.

In short, your right - the R body line (and I think) the R lens line as you know it today are dead. Now, what replaces them?

Enough crystal ball gazing for me for one day. ;>

Regardless of what happens, it WILL be interesting to watch unfold. I will be VERY happy to be proven wrong on this one.
 
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Stuart Richardson

Active member
I have a feeling that this might be the case too...an improved digilux line...
The problem with the R lenses is that (if it is a problem as such), they are too good in a way. They are simply SO expensive that they sell in extraordinarily low volumes. They are even more expensive than the M lenses (for the most part), and they don't have the rangefinder mystique that tends to sell lenses for the M cameras. People look at the R system and though it offers some nice advantages, they just can't get past paying thousands of dollars more than Canon or Nikon for manual focus SLR lenses, no matter how good they are. Until recently, the M lenses were the only game in town for rangefinders, (Voigtlander and Zeiss ZM still aren't on many photographer's radar, even though they know about Leica M), but the R lenses have always had fierce, direct competition from Canon and Nikon...
But anyway, this is all just rampant speculation. We are not going to know anything until photokina, unless there is some pronouncement from Leica. I really hope there is an excellent R10, I am just rather discouraged at this point.
 
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fotografz

Well-known member
all this discussion is pretty depressing really ....
I think "depressing" is premature.

The DMR is still a viable camera, and Leica has to support it for years to come. My take on the DMR has been that it's a personal indulgence ... there are very few actual jobs I can use it for.

I've kept lenses that are unlikely to be reproduced in future no matter what Leica does ... like the 35/1.4 & 80/1.4. So, the DMR gives me access to these lenses of unique character. I also kept a 28-90 just for goofing off while on vacation and a old 135/2.8 for portraits ... a lens often forgotten but also quite nice in character. While I have an adapter to use the 80 and 135 on my Canons, I simply never use them that way ... if I'm shooting with the Canon it's for a specific reason ... usually that reason is lightening quick AF.

When the DMR dies, and if there is no replacement, I'll place it on my shelf as a nostalgic curio, and use the R9 with film scanned on the Imacon 949 : -)

Least we forget, it's amazing what these optics can render on film. Attached: R7 & R60 macro using ISO 800 neg film scanned on an old Minolta 2800 dpi scanner that my 8000 dpi 949 with it's razor sharp Rodenstock lens and grain melting diffused light source could now kill.
 
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robmac

Well-known member
fotograz (Marc) has a good point.

While my guess is the R camera line and lens line-up (uber-performance and priced all metal pro primes & zooms) as we know them now are dead, it doesn't mean what you have now (or can buy now) has stopped working. Again, HOPE I'm wrong.

Some of my best pics last summer were on 160NC, an R8 and a last gen 90/2.8. Side-by side 160NC shots multi-scanned on a Nikon 5000 were indistinguishable on screen and on 8x10s from same subject/lens shots from my (then) 30D. If I ever go MF and have a film back - it will be loaded with 160NC.

Maybe the bigger concern for "...from my cold dead hands..." DMR owners should be if Leica goes the depressing route, what are my DMR options?:

- If I love it enough to keep it as a prime digital body for the next X years, regardless of the 1Ds__ or D___ or the Hasselblad CWD or a Mamiya ZD options, what of service/parts?

- Would a second DMR back as a 'just in case' be a good idea while they aren't collectors? If yes, do it now or wait until Photokina and POSSIBLE depressed R line prices and increased used supplies from PO'd owners?

- What R lenses do I want to have for x years fwd and what ones should I sell (if inclined to do so at all) to mitigate any POSSIBLE drop in value - or to buy that 2nd back, R10 substitute, etc? What ones would I sell today just in case - but COULD find myself wanting to buy back at slightly higher prices if all the gloom and doom doesn't come to pass? A lens hedge if you will.

You'll always be able to find a clean used R8, R9 in 5 years -- no different than finding a clean Contax 645 today.

However, because of the small production run and the Imacon (now Hasselblad) disconnect, there is a very real chance that ANY shift away from the SLR market AS WE KNOW IT TODAY by Leica could hit DMR back service/parts the hardest.

Leica's long standing 'we repair it for decades' philosophy is sweet, and would be of no concern re: the mechanics of the back or camera. The bigger issue would be the sensor and electronics that are integral to it.

The preceding decisions would be a HELL of a lot easier if management just cut the BS, handed Kaufman (sic?) a protective cup (or a bottle of Champers) and told him to man-up to the question he keeps hearing .
 
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jaapv

Subscriber Member
"I can assure you that we have every intention of leaving a mark in the single lens reflex line"
Mr. Kaufmann in the most recent LFI. That does not sound as if the R line as we know it is dead. I hope...
 

doug

Well-known member
Maybe the bigger concern for "...from my cold dead hands..." DMR owners should be if Leica goes the depressing route, what are my DMR options?
One long-standing Leica policy which I hope is continued in the future is their offer of a sweet deal on new equipment when the discontinued model dies a premature death.
 

robsteve

Subscriber
Leica's long standing 'we repair it for decades' philosophy is sweet, and would be of no concern re: the mechanics of the back or camera. The bigger issue would be the sensor and electronics that are integral to it.
Leica has the repair it for decades policy because they always keep a number of spares. It has been that way for years. In some cases, if the demand warrants it, Leica will take the spare parts and make some more of the items. This was the case in the SL2 or SL2 Mot, were another batch were made ten or twenty years later and also a case with the 35-70mm f2.8.

In regards to the DMR, Leica is probabably not going to start making them out of the spares, since they didn't make them in the first place, but there is a very good chance they have spare parts to last for years.

On to lens pricing. If Leica makes a new mount or AF lens, there will be some form of backwards compatibility. What people are forgetting, these new AF lenses will be very expensive and for some lenses where AF is not needed, the older versions may go up in price in the used market. For example, the 19mm, which sells used for about $1,500. My guess is a new AF version of this lens will be at least $4,500. What do you think will happen to the used price of the 19mm if it was able to be adapted to the R10? I bet it goes up in price.

Robert
 

robmac

Well-known member
"One long-standing Leica policy which I hope is continued in the future is their offer of a sweet deal on new equipment when the discontinued model dies a premature death."

Would help sooth any (if any) tattered nerves...
 

robmac

Well-known member
Rob - As we chatted over coffee when I picked up the 28 (thanks again), the mechanics of the combo aren't the issue, it's the inventory level of Imacon-sourced replacement sensors for the DMR that sparked my curisosity (can't remember why). Even just from a business planning perspective -- did the premature death of the DMR result in a glut or dearth (vs. plan) of sensor spares? Anyone have an idea?

As for lenses. If the R10 is what folks hope for and if it's a direct slap-on or slap-on via a (decently priced) adapter, you're quite correct. the former would be the best Nikon-esque choice, the latter workable. A 'send it to us' solution would be a dumb, dumb strategy - for customers and (logistically) for Leica. With what I read re: the M8 repair situation, I don't know how many people would do it for other than their most prized lenses.

Maybe Herr Kaufmann is doing us all a favor - lets us do some grey matter muscle-stretching. That being said, speculation and theories and what-ifs are nice, but only Leica knows the truth, what they'll tell the world, and when.

OT to a degree: I do want to say that what gets my respect is the polite and mature discourse taking place when you consider what a similar subject (or seemingly any subject) would be like on most other forums. In the latter case, I'd hazard that most people wouldn't even bother to touch this subject unless they had an axe to grind - life's too short for fan boy dribble by folks who don't realize that it's the pictures that matter, not what took them. Most impressive.
 
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