Leica R looking forward

[Stuart Richardson]

Though I am fearful about several things in the R system, I am not too worried about parts availability for the DMR. While Imacon wrote the firmware for the DMR, I don't believe they made any of the parts for it. I could be wrong. Kodak made the sensor (Imacon does not make their own), so I would imagine that parts would come from them if necessary. As for the rest, I am fairly sure Leica did it themselves with advisory from Imacon. Since they managed to bring out their own firmware upgrade without Imacon's help (1.3), I have a feeling that they should be able to provide parts for it as well as they could provide parts for say any of the other electronic R series cameras that were not made entirely by Leica (RE, R7 etc).

 

[robmac]

jaapv - my emphasis is the R line 'as we know it' (AWKI)

AWKI = a full line of exceptional lenses (AF in this case) designed to bolt on to an integrated grip, pro-level R8/9-like chassis (talk about sweet ergonomics...) enhanced to drive in-lens AF motors with manual focus lens FC, a FFish sensor, no AA filter, a LiO battery, enhanced ISO range, a decent frame rate, etc.

In short something that would stand toe-to-toe in handling, performance (with some forgiveness for ISO vs the D3) and ergos with the existing pro-level gear from Nikon, Canon. As the R8/9 and it's predecessors did/do for film.

A PanaLeica or similar body that will take existing R lenses and new Leica-designed and lower-cost sub-FF AF glass, to me, is not an R10. A sweet DSLR? Probably, but not an R10 - for me anyway. Again, I REALLY, REALLY hope that bad feeling I'm getting in my gut on the subject is just the old GERD acting up.

 

[robmac]

Stuart - Very good points re: the Kodak vs Imacon contribution to the DMR

 

[gogopix]

F..... Es ist unklar, ob und wie das R-System digital weitergeführt wird.

A. Wir haben eine Lösung in der Entwicklung, die wir vorstellen werden.

V-They WILL have a product

f;Auf der Photokina 2008 im Herbst in Köln?

a;Im Herbst im Köln wird man dazu etwas wahrnehmen können.

youi'll know more in October

F...Werden die alten Objektive kompatibel sein?

a; Es tut mir leid, aber dazu werde ich heute nichts sagen.

This is the BIGGEE!. But what does 'compatible' mean. Likely everything from 'cant even mount it' to some features dont work. If there is a focus confirmation, likely only ROM lenses will work. I will bet the issue is not all lenses, but that the new lenses will be ROM only compatible. (so, spendf the 150 for the lenses you like.

f;Warum diese Geheimniskrämerei?

Ich kündige ungern etwas an, von dem ich zwar überzeugt bin und das in der Entwicklung ist, das aber noch nicht marktreif ist. Wir wollen hinter dem Produkt stehen. Es soll die Bedürfnisse der Kunden weit übererfüllen.

V-this is the big mitigator; these staements are not compatible with trashing the older R concept. If you unbderstand the response, Dr K basically says he is afraid to signal anything especially since he is himdelf really enthusiatis,a nd anticipates exceeding the customers expectations.

SO whatever it is, HE thinks we will like it.

hope this helps Translations aren't and I am not a native speaker, but having lived in germany these are not nuances. but what rings true to me is that Dr K is talking to the Leica fans, and I think he is one of them! That6's why he owns the company.

Now, let's get back to enjoying that stuff.

Victor

 

[PeterA]

Victor,
Maybe an English speaking journalist should do an interview o 98% of the customer base can understand this gobble-de-gook.:sleep006:

What do you think ?

 

[gogopix]

Victor,
Maybe an English speaking journalist should do an interview o 98% of the customer base can understand this gobble-de-gook.:sleep006:

What do you think ?

yes; I find DR K crystal clear compared to some of the comments

 

[jaapv]

F..... Es ist unklar, ob und wie das R-System digital weitergeführt wird.

A. Wir haben eine Lösung in der Entwicklung, die wir vorstellen werden.

V-They WILL have a product

f;Auf der Photokina 2008 im Herbst in Köln?

a;Im Herbst im Köln wird man dazu etwas wahrnehmen können.

youi'll know more in October

F...Werden die alten Objektive kompatibel sein?

a; Es tut mir leid, aber dazu werde ich heute nichts sagen.

This is the BIGGEE!. But what does 'compatible' mean. Likely everything from 'cant even mount it' to some features dont work. If there is a focus confirmation, likely only ROM lenses will work. I will bet the issue is not all lenses, but that the new lenses will be ROM only compatible. (so, spendf the 150 for the lenses you like.

f;Warum diese Geheimniskrämerei?

Ich kündige ungern etwas an, von dem ich zwar überzeugt bin und das in der Entwicklung ist, das aber noch nicht marktreif ist. Wir wollen hinter dem Produkt stehen. Es soll die Bedürfnisse der Kunden weit übererfüllen.

V-this is the big mitigator; these staements are not compatible with trashing the older R concept. If you unbderstand the response, Dr K basically says he is afraid to signal anything especially since he is himdelf really enthusiatis,a nd anticipates exceeding the customers expectations.

SO whatever it is, HE thinks we will like it.

hope this helps Translations aren't and I am not a native speaker, but having lived in germany these are not nuances. but what rings true to me is that Dr K is talking to the Leica fans, and I think he is one of them! That6's why he owns the company.

Now, let's get back to enjoying that stuff.

Victor

Lets translate properly, to make it less gobbledegooky...

Q: It is not clear whether the R system will be continued?
A: We are developing a solution which we will introduce
Q: On the Photokina in autumn 2008 in Cologne?
A: In fall in Cologne one will be able to see something.
Q: Will old lenses be compatible
A: No comment at this point of time
Q: Why all the secrecy?
A: I do not want to announce something that I am convinced of and that is being developed, but which is not yet ready for introduction on the market. We must fully believe in the product. It must more than fulfill the needs of our customers.

I think this is crystal clear: Yes we are developing a system that is retro-compatible with the existing R line, but it proves to be difficult and we will not be ready for introduction this year. However, in fall we will be able to do something like showing a mock-up or announce specifications. (My interpretation)

 

[robmac]

"Q: Will old lenses be compatible
A: No comment at this point of time

Q: Why all the secrecy?
A: I do not want to announce something that I am convinced of and that is being developed, but which is not yet ready for introduction on the market. We must fully believe in the product. It must more than fulfill the needs of our customers."
------
This is the odd part.

Of all the questions re: the future of the R line - this is the simplest to answer, the safest to answer (having been an early design decision), a big move to sooth jitters, the least likely snippet to give anything to competitors (the R lenses being a known entity); yet the one getting the most evasive (and longest/most qualified) responses.

Lenses compatible? Yes/No?
Assuming Yes: Bolt-on? Adapter? Send it to Solms? Aren't a whole lot of other options.

Assuming an adapter (easiest solution for all); designing and making a functioning A-to-B lens adapter with a ROM chip in volume is not exactly rocket-science nor costly. My cabinet has a hefty stock of perfectly functioning custom encoded ROM adapters (e.g. 28/2.8, 90/2, 110/2, etc) that cost well under $100/unit.

Weird, just weird.

 

[PeterA]

My thoughts exactly Rob...


btw (seperate topic) love to hear about your adaptors if you get the chance!

 

[LCT]

...Of all the questions re: the future of the R line - this is the simplest to answer...
Lenses compatible? Yes/No?
Assuming Yes: Bolt-on? Adapter? Send it to Solms?...

Not that simple to answer IMHO. A lens is not compatible as is if one need to put a ring on it or change its bayonet or send it to Solms or Leica reps. As i suggested above, Kaufmann would have exposed Leica to litigation if he had answered that current lenses will be compatible without elaborating on details that are not decided yet apparently.

 

[gogopix]

yes, I think this will be the main issue. Given the 'sturm und drang' over the magenta in "M", even slight incombatibility will make Dr K nervous, until the whole story is out. Also translations do not convey connotations. e.g. to me the word 'ueberzeught' has an element of excitement and enthusiam (at least amongst older people), not just being convinced, so Dr K doesnt want to risk a disappointing reception.

As in many things, anticipation and speculation is part of the fun. And brand loyalty, and a leader in a company who takes personal interest in hois company and product is refreshing in a comoditized world of McDs and Starbucks, and the same clothes in every strip mall across the country. Regardless the outcome, DrK brings what I think is a refreshing attitude.

regards
Victor

 

[robmac]

Litigation possibility - I'll give you that - if they give an unqualified "Yes" when they meant to say "Yes, with an adapter or a mod by us (or maybe your choice?) - still undecided there".

That said, they know the yes/no part of the question, As to the how - just qualify the answer. No deception or misrepresentation, no lawsuit.

That said, they could face a litigation issue re: comments made by prior CEO vs what may come to pass. People don't seem to need much of an excuse these days. Might explain why for any company, let alone a German one, they were so blunt in their public comments when he ate a bullet.

A well-made adapter with a ROM unit bolted to it could be done be designed and overseen in CAM by any one of 101 apprentices at Leica given their history of fine mechanical engineering.

 

[robmac]

Wanted to amend last post, but waited too long, so:

As mentioned so many pages ago, my fave pet theories as to what will happen in Fall are:

1. The infamous PanaLeica + R glass option. A good DSLR it may be, but not something you'd mentally picture when thinking R10. IF (big IF) this is the SOLE solution to the R10 question, then they KNOW the mount answer.

However to use the phrases 'next gen R' and 'backwards compatible' in any comments without better qualifying the body involved could understandably imply to folks an digital R9 on 'roids is coming soon. It would open them to all sorts of backlash.

2. The second, which IS NOT mutually exclusive to the first, and has again debated by many here, is a concept I'll call "Pheasant under Glass" (PUG) - a mock up, body cap on (sorry), under glass at Photokina.

PUG would dovetail nicely with:

a) The theory that they're staying mum on R glass, because yes, THEY really DON'T KNOW how the 'true R10' (as we would think of it) will work re: legacy lenses. Translation - the design of the camera is nowhere near along the cycle as we would believe/hope/wish.

b) What happened re: management shakeup. Promises made/deliverables implied that had no hope of being met on the schedule implied/hoped for.

c) The comments by K mentioning a "...hint....' at Photokina, etc.,

d) The reluctance by K to say anything re: the R10's future.

e) A larger expected show presence, likely to push M and PanaLeica models, possibly high-end ones (see #1) designed to act as a stop gap and keep R users from bidding adieu.

The risk of course is that PUG, the true R10 we all covet, becomes Leica's version of the Sony A900 - delayed and delayed and delayed, displayed in various stages of operability, but eventually(?) released.

The nastier risk is that it becomes their Pentax MFD solution: a dish that looks sweet as hell but never sees production due to market conditions, competitive changes, a take-over, or simple financial/risk management 101 - despite their best intentions.

Ain't speculation grand when it's not your hundreds of millions at risk?

 

[jaapv]

Leica heritage speaking here:
How did the Leica camera take off? By getting SMALLER, not bigger! Going against the mainstream of the best photographs being delivered by the huge stuff of the time and proving them wrong with the miniature 135 format. So Leica should develop a superb 4/3rds camera, maybe using the E3 as a starting point. Olympus has a similar tradition; the OM1 and OM2 could have been Leicas.

 

[robertparker]

Hi
As a new member I have enjoyed reading everyone's comments and therefore I have tried to approach this issue from a pure business perspective rather than to comment on the recent interview.

I feel it makes sense for Leica to drop 4/3 cameras but still assist Panasonic with lens design to maintain a royalty income flow.

For the R10 and potential AF lenses to be manufactured by Panasonic using a full frame Kodak ccd sensor to a size equivalent to a Nikon D300. This camera to be backward compatible with existing lenses but priced below the M8 thereby making the M8 the flagship product pricewise .

In this manner Leica can launch a superb R camera priced above the Canon 5D replacement but lower than the M8 without undermining their existing M pricing strategy.

I would also differentiate the two lines by not making the new R upgradable.

This would benefit Panasonic by strengthening the Leica brand and therefore the marketing return of the Leica name on their mass market products. For Leica it would allow them to continue playing to their strengths of producing exquisite optics without the need for substantial investment into new manufacturing facilities and increasing their workforce.

This is just my 2 cents.

 

[LCT]

...I would also differentiate the two lines by not making the new R upgradable. This would benefit Panasonic by strengthening the Leica brand and therefore the marketing return of the Leica name on their mass market products...

Hi Robert. I don't see any link between the R line and Panasonic personally. Leica has been associated with other brands like Minolta or Fuji in the past but i can't seem to recall that Leica has ever reduced the features of R (or M) products to strenghten those very bands actually.

 

[jaapv]

Well - most Leica R cameras starting with the R3 were Minolta spin-offs really.

 

[robertparker]

Hi
Firstly Minolta cameras are now Sony and Panasonic have a close relationship with Leica concerning the Digilux 3/L1. This is the obvious partner due to their current working relationship.

The opening in the market is for smaller form quality DSLR as particularly Canon maintain a definitive difference in quality between their pro line and 5D etc. Nikon is blurring the distinction but still the large camera with all the features is there top of the range. I like my D3 but love the Leica manual focus lens and smaller sizes compared to either the professional ranges of Canon or Nikon.

Therefore I have a D3 for photo recording requirements due to great flash, voice memos, frames per second etc but for enjoying photography and enjoying the pleasure of ownership I love my Leica DMR and lenses but wish the camera was smaller. Someone will say the obvious solution is buy an M8 but I prefer an SLR camera. I am hoping that the R10 will be smaller have excellent image quality manual mirror lockup but doesn't need all the bells and whistles and isn't designed to compete in the photojournalist market.

The DSLR is a very competitive market and if the R10 is priced above the M8 then I see problems in achieving market acceptance except from those who are loyal Leica fans. On the other hand if the R10 was produced at Solms and was more sophisticated and larger than a M8 the expectation would be that it would be marketed at a higher price point. The M8 as a niche product I suspect is not as price sensitive as a DSLR. Therefore by having a known third party produce an excellent product under license allows an opportunity to come in at a lower price without affecting the M8.

It is also interesting to see the lenses people use for travel and if the first AF lenses were high quality general zooms like a 28-100 ie following the strategy used for the 4/3 cameras and you could have the camera either optimised for manual focus or AF.

I would be excited as I could use all my excellent R glass and have the option of a few AF lenses for travel. Knowing the costs of R&D if I wanted an R10 to have an excellent AF 500 f4 I expect it would actually be cheaper to buy a Nikon or Canon lens and throw in the pro body for free so I can't see this as being an effective route for Leica. On the other hand the excellent existing manual focus lens lend themselves to professional art and studio work as well as many other avenues that don't rely on the frantic rush of a photo journalist.

I find using a manual focus camera makes you think and enjoy the process. Todays AF DSLR are apt to make you take a machine gun approach then review later to see which shots are worth keeping.

 

[robmac]

Here's an idea that has my curiosity tweaked and is maybe of a glass half-full vein.

What would be the reaction to the following:

DMR Mod II
-------------
Tweak the R9 to end the #$% film scratching with a simple $5 film roller bearing like everyone else, but no other substantive mods. No AF, say 4-5 fps max, LiO battery.

Back with FF 16MP or so sensor (don't go nuts - keep nice fat light buckets), no AA filter, minimum of 5D-esque ISO performance (a very clean ISO 800 and usable ISO 1600). The lack of AA would make up for a lot of lost 'pixels' when it came to fine detail capture and large prints. Focus confirm and LV would be nice - but only if the $$$ required to implement warranted it. Ensure R8-9 backward compatibility.

A better idea than LiveView would be a typical smallish screen (by current standards) BUT an LV 'tap' so a user could plug something like an iPod Touch (pick your poison) into the camera to get that view camera functionality (and ___GB extra storage plus wifi) with the 'pod (or what have you) on an adjustable cold shoe mount. Lots of great small screens out there - no need to build one into every body.

In short Leica, partner your best of breed tech with that of others - especially when everyone wants larger, more flexible, and higher res screens every year, let alone wifi, etc. The cost would be VERY modest (by Leica pricing standards) -- and only incurred by the folks that wanted it. Let Apple or X worry about the screen, wifi, storage capacity, etc of that side of the coin.

Such a product would require minimal R&D, be of much lower market risk as would not be targeted at the 'mass market' pro DSLR user yet keep the brand in the DSLR game and leverage all that great glass.

Thumbs up or down? If thumbs up, required price point to be attractive to you?

 

[PeterA]

JUST put a decent sensor which is full frame and delivers the 'quality' of file that the existing DMR or M8 sensor delivers boosrted by increased sensor size. i want FAT pixels - not lots of pixels. Sacrifice moire potential ( which can be fixed by software) for clean crisp bright POP factor files. Ignore high ISO ie above 800, underprocess the files, deliver neutral raw files. Let ME make teh 'look' decision ala best practise in MFD ( sinar and hassleblad)

Make the camera lighter by NOT having the stupid film legacy of the R9 and include a modern battery. Keep the current beautiful shape. Give me a large LCD with the viewability of the M8 or DMR and live view. Improve flash capability. For goodness sake PLEASE allow for the most up to date SD or CF cards for fast write. Make the camera bullet proof and robust with better than Canon D series weatherproofing. Give me a really bright 100% viewfinder. Make software plug ins for Adobe and the second ranked people to handle various lens issues and corrections.

I think high ISO /Autofocus/ and all the gizmos should be left to other makers who need all the bells and whistles for fan boy shooters.

Accessorise by optioning a nice leather hands strap/ diopter correction/high quality kit bags/ flash unit/ spare batteries/ ( please allow for double batter charger up front liek Nikon and canon do in their pro line cameras!! and NO STOOPID Leica TRUCK sized charger that DOESNT fit properly on peoples walls and extension sockets.