M8 or MF?

[Jack]

I am not sure that the ZD back would be my preference.

LJ:

Allow me to explain my longer-term plan: IIRC without going back to find it, somewhere in this thread somebody mentioned back-up, and how a 1Ds3 and raft of lenses might be the option since owning a second MF outfit is cost-prohibitive...

Well, in my case, I look at my current AFD-II body and ZD as my future back-up. Fact is, I paid LESS for them than I would have for a 1Ds3 body. At this point I'm entering MF digital and have a system I can use that generates significantly better files than the 1Ds3 can ever hope to, in both detail and color fidelity. Period. My next set-up will likely be the AFD-III body and Aptus 75S back. At that time, I have so little in the AFD-II and ZD it is more valuable as a back-up than it is as a trade in. Moreover, I have a few peices of specialty glass where the resolution difference won't make a difference in the image; like my recently acquired Mamiya manual focus 145 soft-focus lens. This lens produces a gorgeous SF effect like not other I've seen, and is totally adjustable, yet more than 22MP is going to be wasted by it. Heck, more than 11MP may be wasted, but the look is still great! I can see it left permanently attached to the AFDII/ZD

Another point that I think Marc may have alluded to briefly: If you are hand-holding these cameras under ambient light at speeds under 1/500th, I doubt you are going to get more than 22MP of resolution data into the file anyway. Under strobes hand-held or on a tripod, different story; improved tonality and DR with the newer/larger backs also a different story, so there are certainly reasons for owning the better backs.

Howeverbut... This does not solve the leaf-shutter, working under studio lighting scenario for me. The good news for me here, is 1) I rarely do this type of shooting anymore and 2) the studio I use whenever I need to do studio shoots, has a full compliment of Hassy H bodies and my choice of Leaf Aptus 75 or Hassy H39 backs at my disposal to borrow... (Yes, I know that's a sweet deal.) So for me, I kind of have the best of both worlds without having to actually own the two completely different systems...

Lastly, Mamiya actually made 4 leaf-shutter lenses to be used on their manual 645 system; a 55, 70, 80 and 150. They are manual focus lenses and a cluge to use -- double cocking, special cable release, limited to 1/30th through 1/500th -- but for static subjects like table-top or mixed lighting interiors, a cheap way for Mamiya owners to solve the leaf-shutter/flash sync issue.

Cheers,

 

[vieri]

AS for the 14n - yes, loved it; I did beta testing on the firmware with Kodak, it was all exciting and fun (Italian flags, moire and all).

Jono, I didn't know you got some 14n experience too! I am glad you enjoyed the Italian flag, I never understood why people using the 14n would complain about it, don't we all love our beautiful flag? :ROTFL: I suppose mexicans and hungarians would share their appreciation as well :ROTFL::ROTFL:

-- sorry, couldn't resist it -- back to serious now...

btw, I got your email, am trying to write something meaningful, you'll get it soon hopefully

 

[LJL]

Jack,
I do follow your logic. (It was probably me that brought up the "back-up" issue anyway.)

Your longer range planning, as well as access to additional gear and a studio easily, does fit your choices. I wish my own plans and directions were a fraction as clear ;-) Your comments about handholding and shutter speeds and resolution are also all critical things that I am still sorting myself. I shoot a lot of action. I shoot a lot of that in low light. However, as I keep transitioning my own work and business, I am having my own struggle with my present/past, and what I think I would like my forward/future stuff to work like. (Again, that is my own wrestling match, and I may be guilty of overthinking or overplanning some of this stuff, but that is my nature.)

I think the AFDII and ZD solution may be perfect for your plans, and that is why I am trying to not sound contrary too much. For me, it may still be a great tool in that same sort of planning thing, and I have not ruled it out for those reasons. I just know how impatient or frustrated I can get at times. (Honestly, the M8 was a superb training tool for me in that regard. It came loaded with all its issues, and I just HAD to patiently work through them with everybody else that jumped in early. No real regrets on my side for that. I still love what it does immensely, and do not think I could ever give it up.) I know I would want and expect "more" once I started down the path, just as I do now after shooting the M8 for a year and half or so. This is an addiction....I am sure of that ;-)

Worst part of this see-saw for me is that just yesterday, I was looking at the ADFII and ZD back kit. I had also just gotten off the phone with a guy looking to sell his H3DII 39 and the 80/2.8, 150/3.2 and 300/4.5 lenses for what is probably a pretty good deal. And during all of this, I kept looking at some great stuff that Nic Claris was shooting with a loaner Hy6 and Rollei Super-Angulon 40/3.5 PQ with the eMotion 75LV back. Talk about setting some unreal expectations for myself, the gear, and my budget!!! It was maddening and thrilling at the same time.

So, these threads have been and continue to be a great source of inspiration, planning and thought. They also bring some sobriety to expectations and budgets. All of that is very good. The suggestions and solutions being offered are all good, and as a reader/participant, I have to keep reminding myself of my own situation, direction, desire, etc., and sometimes that feels less comfortable, especially if parts of it are unknown.

Not to worry....I am going to keep plugging away at this. I may make some steps and missteps at times, but one thing for sure......MF is now delivering some of the most exciting digital images and files of anything, and other cameras and systems, such as the Leica M8 and Canon's big stuff, still have their place and use. The test for me and probably others is to figure out what places we are going to play in the most.

On that note, I have to say that Marc just makes me sick....with envy....in a very good way ;-) He has built an incredible career of very interesting work, and has the joy and pain of working with so many great tools to support and advance that. Kudos to him for sure. (Secretly, his thoughts and perspectives keep me in this entire thing at this point. I do respect his experience and offerings, just as I do from so many others that contribute.)

Thanks again for the perspectives, explanations, and encouragements. This ain't over until its over ;-)

LJ

 

[Jack]

LJ: Clearly we all have different needs, desires and tastes, so what works for me is not necessarily going to work for you, or Victor or Marc; in fact I think if anything, we've PROVEN that to be the case in these threads I offer my logic only as data to help guide you on your own. As Marc has said, it's all good; as Victor pointed out, its also about personal tastes...

At the end of the day, as certain as I am for my current plans I am nearly as CERTAIN those plans do NOT coincide with the gear I will own 5 years from now! :ROTFL:

We're lucky because we have so many choices, and at the same time doomed because there is no single perfect choice...

Cheers,

 

[pss]

there are quite a few options out there right now and i know that phase, leaf, hass and sinar backs can all produce great files....and all provide superior files to the dslrs.....but i have worked with files from the ZD back and i find the files from the smaller backs (even the P20) better....as always the pixel count is only half the story...pixel depth is more important IMO...a P21 is 18mpix, shoots 1f/sec, 100-800....zero noise at 100....just a great back...and both those backs are in the ZD price range.....
of course the P30 has the extra pixels and being able to crop more aggressively is a big plus...but it really comes down to print size and what the images are used for....

just talked to one of my assistants...he just played with GF for the first time and could not believe what he was able to blow up from a 5mpix p&s file....his key finding: never sharpen anything until you are ready to print...sharpen according to the print size...

either way there are so many variables starting with camera, lenses, imager, software, retouching and finally print or output.....after being digital for 15 years i think i am getting there...
my dream imager would be a 14-16 mpix imager 16 bit 50-1600 clean iso (no miracles but no software smudging either), 1.5f/sec no buffer....

and actually i think that the FF/m9/?? should be pretty close to that....(except for the 50 iso...i don't think that will happen...nobody and nothing is perfect...)

the key is to experiment a lot and play with all the toys, everybody is different and needs and want different things.....