Hello and Question(s) about the M8

[scott kirkpatrick]

Showing an example of the green streak problem,

i understand that this only happens when a light source is at the edge of the frame as pictured in the attachment.

i thought this issue was corrected in the later m8's.

Nope. There were much more frequent streaks seen from bright lights within the frame in the first months after product release in 2006, but a hardware recall fixed those and they haven't reappeared. The "green streak" is much rarer. Furrukh Khan (an engineer, of course) set up a camera on a tripod, and determined by turning the camera in very small steps that the angle in which it occurs was only a degree or so wide. I've only seen one green streak in about 9000 exposures. This appears to be a sensor issue that firmware isn't going to make go away.

scott

 

[Daniel]

Showing an example of the green streak problem,



Nope. There were much more frequent streaks seen from bright lights within the frame in the first months after product release in 2006, but a hardware recall fixed those and they haven't reappeared. The "green streak" is much rarer. Furrukh Khan (an engineer, of course) set up a camera on a tripod, and determined by turning the camera in very small steps that the angle in which it occurs was only a degree or so wide. I've only seen one green streak in about 9000 exposures. This appears to be a sensor issue that firmware isn't going to make go away.

oh blargh! at least this is a rare situation. but still, blargh! for heavens sake, it's a 5,000$ camera.

so i guess this is something that leica cannot correct even if i sent it over to their repair center?

what a huge bummer — a catasthrope, a calamity. an understatement!

what's your input? pointless to send my camera back to leica to fix this "green streak" problem?

—dan

 

[Daniel]

Grumpy,
The half-case, strap and SD card holder (there also is a battery holder available) are from Luigi at Leicatime. http://www.leicatime.com/ This case has the built-in grip. Luigi can also make a case that incorporates the Leica grip or you can have it without a grip. I really like the built-in grip. You can have it made with a tripod socket and without. Mine is without. My strap is the padded model. This is the aged-brown color.
Congratulations on the new M8.

Cindy,

thank you for pointing me to leicatime.com. i've just received the full case with the detachable top, and flush mount for the tripod. i also got the sd card-battery holder. Luigi's case is wonderfully made.

 

[scott kirkpatrick]

what's your input? pointless to send my camera back to leica to fix this "green streak" problem?

As far as I could tell, the only changes in hardware since the original recall were made to accommodate some components that could no longer be obtained. There was no mention of any change in the camera's behavior. When the first update was made, it was stated that this would fix the earlier and much more severe streaking problems.

Of course if someone has a very recently purchased M8, confirms that it has "ccdboard-id=2" (use Cornerfix to read the secret parts of the EXIF to check this) and then conducts a careful test to see if the green streak is still there -- I'd be very interested in the results.

scott

 

[jaapv]

I don't think it is specific to the age of the camera - I have two bodies from November 2006 and January 2007 and neither has exhibited a single green streak in 12.000+ images. Other users report the problem is reproducable and regular.

 

[okram]

I v`e had a few of those...
About 3-4 in 13000 shots.

Jaap, please try to make one (C shoot, I think best with WA lens, strong light source on the edge-while moving the frame slowly, in a 10 shots you should be able to reproduce one).

If you dont succeed, then your camera is different than mine.

It could be something with camera hardware that Leica cannot afford do publish, and do another recall.
But they have said officially ( maybe that Guy`s query) that it can be solved by FW (or am I wrong?)

Any thoughts?




M

 

[fotografz]

LOL, your head must be spinning Tim.

A few thoughts from a simpleton who has just used this stuff for well over 30 years.

The M8 has a 1.3X crop frame, so each lens has to be multiplied by 1.3X to determine the field-of-view it is actually capturing ... just like with your Nikon and it's 1.5X lens factor ... so many full frame test charts won't indicate the actual corner performance of some Rangefinder lenses ... unless they take that specifically in mind.

Since you already use a Nikon, you are probably familiar with which focal lengths you tend to favor ... so that's a starting point in determining which Rangefinder lens(es) to start with ... remembering the 1.3X factor.

You also know what your shooting intent is ... in my case it was low light hand-held work that defined my need for as fast a maximum aperture as possible ... leading me primarily to Leica selections for the most part. But I've tried various other optics like the V/C 35/1.2 ASPH which to my surprise didn't meter any differently than my Leica M 35/1.4 ASPH. but weighed more.

While many of the various lens makers mentioned offer excellent optics for use on the M8, there is one subtile difference I've noted over the years ... that there is a "general" consistency or philosophy concerning color rendition. In my experience Zeiss skews a tad cool and Leica a tad warmer. No big deal in the age of digital except when you mix and match a series of images which you want quite consistent and therefore have to balance one or the other to match. Some may say this is splitting hairs ... and maybe so, but for $10,000. a system one should have high standards IMO.

Of course if B&W is your objective it's irrelevant : -)

 

[Guy Mancuso]

I v`e had a few of those...
About 3-4 in 13000 shots.

Jaap, please try to make one (C shoot, I think best with WA lens, strong light source on the edge-while moving the frame slowly, in a 10 shots you should be able to reproduce one).

If you dont succeed, then your camera is different than mine.

It could be something with camera hardware that Leica cannot afford do publish, and do another recall.
But they have said officially ( maybe that Guy`s query) that it can be solved by FW (or am I wrong?)

Any thoughts?




M

Hmmm you hit a tough question for me to answer. It is real and it is hardware and not a firmware solving solution to it and it just happened to me in LA about 6 times with heavy backlit stage lighting. The issue is exactly as described light coming in the very very edge of the sensor and a very certain angle. Remember the sensor is split in two be design like others are as well so it goes half way across the frame.View attachment 1275

As you can see in this example where the light source is coming from . Now mine is a original M8 from the beginning but i don't think age has anything to do with it

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Very next frame it is not there. That is how specific it is on location. It is pretty darn rare

 

[Guy Mancuso]

BTW i shot over 1500 images with this before i went screaming at the lighting guy to turn those STUPID backlights off. You could not see without a camera that is how strong they where. I also run this show with production too, so they got me in a bad mood very fast for the first start of this show and they caught on very quickly that it better be right with regards to lighting.

Than i made them balance EVERY light right after this for 4 hours to get the stage perfectly lit. Than made them color correct all the projection equipment for color balance. i was not there favorite person that day.

 

[okram]

Well, in my opinion, this technical issue is scary only for new users- in practice it virtually does not exist.
But the fact is it should not be there...

One reason could be that M8 has FF shutter (source-mark norton, but he says he isnt sure about it)- it is larger, therefore louder, an it does not hide the part of the sensor with reference pixels...
Because of that (and some other, tradition-finder-sturdiness, related reasons) my suspicion is that M8 is made for FF upgrade.
That doesnt mean that it will happen.

 

[Daniel]

Well, in my opinion, this technical issue is scary only for new users- in practice it virtually does not exist.
But the fact is it should not be there...

One reason could be that M8 has FF shutter (source-mark norton, but he says he isnt sure about it)- it is larger, therefore louder, an it does not hide the part of the sensor with reference pixels...
Because of that (and some other, tradition-finder-sturdiness, related reasons) my suspicion is that M8 is made for FF upgrade.
That doesnt mean that it will happen.

scary is right for new users. especially when he or she has spent much effort researching this expensive camera, and then only to encounter this dark greenish banding problem after purchasing it. it makes the new leica m8 owner wonder in some horror if he or she ended up with an expensive dud. it's quite unnerving.

however, i'm finding that the common thing amongst most other leica m8 users is that this problem happens quite rarely. this is, with reservations, fine with me because i don't often take pictures in situations that would trigger this banding. nevertheless, for an almost $6000 Leica body, this banding shouldn't have happened. heck, nothing is perfect, and i'm very hopeful that this will be corrected by Leica.

i sent an e-mail kindly inquiring about this dark greenish banding to leica's technical support, and this was the reply:

This effect of the green banding has been seen before and usually occurs in line with a point or strong light source near the edge of the image.

We are told that further programming will be necessary to address this in a future firmware upgrade.​

so, i'm assuming that the dark greenish banding may possibly be addressed with a firmware update. thank you leica.

–dan

 

[scott kirkpatrick]

One reason could be that M8 has FF shutter - it is larger, therefore louder, an it does not hide the part of the sensor with reference pixels...

Plenty of cameras have shutters that leave a wide space around the imager. Consider the following series, all snipped from DPreview's last "Body and Design" page of their camera reviews, in decreasing order of sensor size: Nikon D3, M8, Pentax K10D, and Olympus 510. The Olympus has the smallest sensor and most space around it, but it is tightly covered. The Nikon's chip is shadowed pretty well by its frame. Both the the M8 and the Pentax K10D have exposed circuits around the edges of the imager, but the green stripe is probably initiated by circuits under the black paint at the edge of the green cover filter. I hope something can be done in firmware, (Mark Norton had a suggestion involving use of the black frame subtraction pathway) But I;m not holding my breath for this one.

scott

 

[okram]

Right You are, Scott.
I think we can only hope for it to be fixed via FW. (as they said...)
Maybe reference pixels can be programmed for lower sensitivity, and therefore not to exhibit such peeping (over burn?)?

Hey Guy, you are just beta testing the new FW, can you test it for this?
Just kidding, I know you cannot say anything.

 

[robsteve]

Plenty of cameras have shutters that leave a wide space around the imager. Consider the following series, all snipped from DPreview's last "Body and Design" page of their camera reviews, in decreasing order of sensor size: Nikon D3, M8, Pentax K10D, and Olympus 510.
scott

Scott:

Could the problem be with the angle the light hits the sensor near the edge of the frame? The same reason why Leica didn't use a thicker cover glass to filter more UV/IR. In other words, is the light coming in at such an angle that it goes under the masking on the edges.

Robert

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Scott:

Could the problem be with the angle the light hits the sensor near the edge of the frame? The same reason why Leica didn't use a thicker cover glass to filter more UV/IR. In other words, is the light coming in at such an angle that it goes under the masking on the edges.

Robert

Yes it goes under the edges

 

[okram]

I guess the upgrade is coming, thoughts?:salute:

 

[Daniel]

it's off-topic and at the same time is still about the sensor. i have a question about sensor cleaning may i get your advises here at: http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showpost.php?p=8528&postcount=38?

 

[Maggie O]

I guess the upgrade is coming, thoughts?:salute:

Much like the DP1, I'll believe it when I see it.

 

[Daniel]

Much like the DP1, I'll believe it when I see it.

oh yeah... what's up with the dp1???