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S Is For Show Us Your S2 Shots

anGy

Member
Maybe the wrong place to ask but...
I'm selling my IQ180 (family reasons) and am looking to another - more convenient - system to use.
So I have an eye on the S2 system. Reading everywhere that the 'S' lenses are exceptional and that the camera body is a joy to operate (compared to the Mamiya DF camera f.i.).

Ok, great, very good points. But my concern is about image quality. It's already hard to downgrade from 80 to 37.5 million pixels (yes 80 millions pix are addictive), it would be even harder if the Kodak sensor of the S2 sits in a complete other league.
From what I could check from downloads (dng files on RedDot forum) I'm not happy with the kodak sensor quality:
* limited dynamic range (ugly burned highlights and dirty blacks)
* strange colors (flashy sky f.i.) in Capture 1 & Lightroom 5
* Noise even @ base iso160

Honestly, looking at those 5-6 downloaded images gives me souvenirs of my good old Nikon D2X camera sensor (not implying that the S2 has the same sensor quality than a D2X, just saying that the re-worked DNG I've seen do look like).

Caution !! (big, huge caution):
Those remarks are based on just a few downloaded DNG files of street shots photos (with what's looking to be a dull sky). Capture 1 does not support an S2 profile / Lightroom 5 is new to me for color (only using it for my MM black& whites). I'm used to the quality of one of the best available sensor (IQ180).

I certainly don't want to start any war, just want to express my true 1st impressions / feeling about the few S2 files I could see.
I'm well aware that the Leica S2 concept does offer a shooting experience that is impossible to match with a mamiya camera.

I'm just seriously worried that the S2 sensor could deliver a 'too limited' IQ for those who have been used to the cream of the crop Phase/Hassy recent sensors IQ.

So if some of you do have experience comparing both sensors (Pramote, Mark ?) I would be happy - with a wide open mind - to read your comments ;)
 
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Stuart Richardson

Active member
If you have seen raw files and you don't like them, you should probably give it a pass. It sounds like you have already made up your mind anyway...
This is the kind of decision that others can't make for you. You should rent or demo the S2 and shoot some files with it in your own manner of working, and if those don't work for you, you have your answer.
 

anGy

Member
That´s a wise advise. But you guys have more options in the US than in certain european countries for renting material. Will check my options.

It's true I've already made up my mind about the DNG files I've seen. But those shots were also of poor quality (handholded, dull sky) and that does not favor the IQ perception.

Seen other (better) jpg & DNG files on RedDot forum yesterday. I like what I've seen when watched at screen size, lens drawing is beautifull. But some details really were not good at pixel level.

Even if the S2 system is a joy to use, even if the S lenses are the best ones, I personally know I won't be happy if the pixel peeped files don't match the ones of my former Phase P40+ back. I'm ready to make 1 step back in pure file quality (from my IQ180) and get a more flexible/fun system to use daily. But I won't be happy if I have to make 2 steps back and regret the P40+ pixel quality (on purpose not using 'image quality').

Hence my question to the IQ160/180 and Hassy users.
 
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fotografz

Well-known member
That´s a wise advise. But you guys have more options in the US than in certain european countries for renting material. Will check my options.

It's true I've already made up my mind about the DNG files I've seen. But those shots were also of poor quality (handholded, dull sky) and that does not favor the IQ perception.

Seen other (better) jpg & DNG files on RedDot forum yesterday. I like what I've seen when watched at screen size, lens drawing is beautifull. But some details really were not good at pixel level.

Even if the S2 system is a joy to use, even if the S lenses are the best ones, I personally know I won't be happy if the pixel peeped files don't match the ones of my former Phase P40+ back. I'm ready to make 1 step back in pure file quality (from my IQ180) and get a more flexible/fun system to use daily. But I won't be happy if I have to make 2 steps back and regret the P40+ pixel quality (on purpose not using 'image quality').

Hence my question to the IQ160/180 and Hassy users.
Why would you think a 38 meg smaller sensor camera will "pixel peep" anywhere near as well as a full 645 80 meg, one or even a 60 meg? That is setting up expectations for failure.

Now, against a 40 meg 1.3X crop frame 645 it could be a better comparison.

I did exactly that. I owned a Hasselblad H4D/40 and a H4D/60. When Leica finally got lenses and updated profiles out the door, my Leica dealer offered to let me test a S2 and a couple of lenses. I was interested because of the S lenses foremost, the convenient form factor, and importantly the dual shutter with leaf-shutter lenses since I use lighting a lot outdoors ... while the H camera uses all leaf shutter lenses, I cannot use the H lenses in focal plane mode for a higher maximum shutter speed of 1/4000 in brighter ambient with wider open apertures like I can with the S2.

So, I bench tested the H4D/40 and the S2 ... objective being that if the S2 IQ came anywhere close, I'd buy it. It did, so I bought it and sold the H4D/40. The tests were apples-to-apples subjects and lighting, shot at the same time then processed in Lightroom which is my favored PP program for workflow reasons ... then finally printed to 17 X 22 for real world comparisons. The S2 IQ generally edged out the H4D/40 by a small margin which I mostly attributed to the all new Leica lenses.

The difference is that the later Phase backs and the H4D/60 are Dalsa sensors, where the H4D/40 and S sensors are Kodak made (now True Sense). My previous Leaf Aptus 75S was also a Dalsa sensor. Similar to different films, IMO each has to be shot and processed for the characteristics of the sensor. If you are use to a Dalsa sensor, and use the same shooting and processing techniques with the Kodak based camera, you may be disappointed. Since I was familiar with both types and used both for a good deal of time, I didn't have any issues.

In general, I like the more natural looking rendering of the S2, which others have also commented on in the "Fun With S2" threads. The S lenses are bightingly sharp and quite contrasy so even standard settings in LR tend to be over-the top. My first S2 shots were a bit crispy until I figured this out.

Really, the only way to evaluate, is to do it yourself and then give yourself time to adjust to the S sensor. Even then, if pixel level viewing is the criteria it may not be right for you.

- Marc
 

PeterA

Well-known member
Leave your 80 megapixel back on a tech camera with wide angle lenses and some movements to d the stuff the sensors were designed to do - landscape for sure and architecture (maybe)

The S2/S systems kill any other medium format system for the ergonomics alone - if you dont like the S lenses you don't like the best that modern optics can deliver for a large chip - you can always dumb down the IQ of the S system via adaptor and use Pentax/Mamiya/Hasselblad V or H series lenses

The system is awesome - that why they can ask for the big bucks and get them.
 

anGy

Member
Because of the reasons mentioned above I have to change my system for a more flexible/easy one to use. Had the D800 but finally sold it, uninspired by this unbeatable value for money camera. The new Leica M is too low in resolution (downgrading from 80 meg to 24 is a bit extreme) as I like to print large (40 to 60" wide).
What's left ? the Leica S system, no other options I can think of.

The concept looks almost perfect (if only lenses could have been lighter and smaller with the same quality...). Those lenses are really appealing in the way they render focus vs out of focus fields, love their cinematic effect.
Prices to jump in are really good now for a Demo S2 with a set of 3 demo unit lenses.

So the last concern left is the sensor quality of the S2.
I'm really happy to read your conclusions on that, Marc, and I'm 100% sure I can rely on them totally.
The downloaded dng's were disappointing to my eyes. I assume it is mainly due to the fact that they were shot handholded, at higher iso (most @ 400iso). And that's no good idea to look at those when you still have tech cam iso35 80meg pixels files in mind !
Kodak sensor to deal with in a different way than Dalsa is a very good point.

I'm still concerned by some observations (ugly structured noise, banding, dynamic range) and start to wonder if one of the biggest advantages of the new S isn't its iso100 native sensitivity ?
If yes, I'll have to consider buying it in place of the S2, but that's twice the price for the body and makes the overall budget jump too high.
Definitively have to try an S2 by myself and get some sleep...
 

menos

New member
What a great thread! It will take me weeks to work myself through all the posted photographs!

My first contact with the Leica S system has been a few years back. I have been using mostly 35mm gear and tried myself through a myriad of medium format and 4x5 film gear as I wanted a different look for my street portraiture.

I held a S2 + 70mm in my hands in a shop for about 15 minutes and knew after that experience, that I wanted one badly, but the price would be just prohibitive.

… well forward until a few months ago, when I walked into one of my favourite shops, inquiring for some Mamiya lenses for my ZD, when the shop owner with a big grin put a Leica S2 on the table, giving me to understand, that he could make me a deal, I couldn't resist.

I talked with my boss and we agreed, that I wouldn't want to pay any money towards those expenses, so I swapped a bag of redundant Leica M lenses towards a Leica S2 + brand new 70 Summarit-S and am since some weeks in play and explore mode, getting to know the Leica S.

What a camera this is! I am still far away from climbing the learning curve, as the differences to 35mm and even medium format film are immense!

I am loving this camera so far and hope, to get used to it better, to start using it more instinctively (still fighting the ground glass focussing, as I am more of a rangefinder guy).

Here are a few shots from a recent early morning walk around town:















In my photographic journey, new gear always pushed my brain to learn and change. I have never been comfortable with colours and actually see the world photographically in monochrome, but the S2 real pushes me to start, doing more colour. I love when new gear does something like this - making you see the world with different eyes again!
 

RVB

Member
Because of the reasons mentioned above I have to change my system for a more flexible/easy one to use. Had the D800 but finally sold it, uninspired by this unbeatable value for money camera. The new Leica M is too low in resolution (downgrading from 80 meg to 24 is a bit extreme) as I like to print large (40 to 60" wide).
What's left ? the Leica S system, no other options I can think of.

The concept looks almost perfect (if only lenses could have been lighter and smaller with the same quality...). Those lenses are really appealing in the way they render focus vs out of focus fields, love their cinematic effect.
Prices to jump in are really good now for a Demo S2 with a set of 3 demo unit lenses.

So the last concern left is the sensor quality of the S2.
I'm really happy to read your conclusions on that, Marc, and I'm 100% sure I can rely on them totally.
The downloaded dng's were disappointing to my eyes. I assume it is mainly due to the fact that they were shot handholded, at higher iso (most @ 400iso). And that's no good idea to look at those when you still have tech cam iso35 80meg pixels files in mind !
Kodak sensor to deal with in a different way than Dalsa is a very good point.

I'm still concerned by some observations (ugly structured noise, banding, dynamic range) and start to wonder if one of the biggest advantages of the new S isn't its iso100 native sensitivity ?
If yes, I'll have to consider buying it in place of the S2, but that's twice the price for the body and makes the overall budget jump too high.
Definitively have to try an S2 by myself and get some sleep...
Buy into the S system for the glass because going forward we will see a higher res S body in the not too distant future and it will probably have a cmosis sensor,the cmosis sensor in the new M is supposed to be very good and by the time Leica add one to the S they will have fine tuned the performance ..

Rob
 

Landscapelover

Senior Subscriber Member
Maybe the wrong place to ask but...
I'm selling my IQ180 (family reasons) and am looking to another - more convenient - system to use.
So I have an eye on the S2 system. Reading everywhere that the 'S' lenses are exceptional and that the camera body is a joy to operate (compared to the Mamiya DF camera f.i.).

Ok, great, very good points. But my concern is about image quality. It's already hard to downgrade from 80 to 37.5 million pixels (yes 80 millions pix are addictive), it would be even harder if the Kodak sensor of the S2 sits in a complete other league.
From what I could check from downloads (dng files on RedDot forum) I'm not happy with the kodak sensor quality:
* limited dynamic range (ugly burned highlights and dirty blacks)
* strange colors (flashy sky f.i.) in Capture 1 & Lightroom 5
* Noise even @ base iso160

Honestly, looking at those 5-6 downloaded images gives me souvenirs of my good old Nikon D2X camera sensor (not implying that the S2 has the same sensor quality than a D2X, just saying that the re-worked DNG I've seen do look like).

Caution !! (big, huge caution):
Those remarks are based on just a few downloaded DNG files of street shots photos (with what's looking to be a dull sky). Capture 1 does not support an S2 profile / Lightroom 5 is new to me for color (only using it for my MM black& whites). I'm used to the quality of one of the best available sensor (IQ180).

I certainly don't want to start any war, just want to express my true 1st impressions / feeling about the few S2 files I could see.
I'm well aware that the Leica S2 concept does offer a shooting experience that is impossible to match with a mamiya camera.

I'm just seriously worried that the S2 sensor could deliver a 'too limited' IQ for those who have been used to the cream of the crop Phase/Hassy recent sensors IQ.

So if some of you do have experience comparing both sensors (Pramote, Mark ?) I would be happy - with a wide open mind - to read your comments ;)
Hi aNGY,

I had the IQ180 but traded for IQ260 and tried all HC/HCD/SK/Mamiya lenses including yours :)
The Leica S2 camera body is the best MF DSLR. It's designed for photographers.
Did I mention about the lenses? The best, my friend!
Don't worry about 40mp. Although I've never tried to print 44", the 24" print is gorgeous. The JPEG on the web can't do the justice. Don't you think Leica will not come with 60, 80 mp in the future? Investing in Leica lens is liked "Gold" (although Joe told me the lenses are better than gold and I count his words).
The only drawback is you don't have any more excuse if you don't take good photographs :)

One great things about using Leica is that you get to know fantastic people who are serious about photography. I've known a few only in the past few weeks.

Life is too short! Don't wait too long.

Believe me, your journey will end, like me.

Best
Pramote
 

anGy

Member
Hello Pramote,
Thanks for your insights. I had the chance to get one S2 for playing with this week-end.
What I've seen from the very first tests does not match the DNG file quality I've downloaded from the internet, it is much, much better. Hope the rest of this little test session will keep the same pace !

Just some silly small jpegs,





 

Landscapelover

Senior Subscriber Member
Hello Pramote,
Thanks for your insights. I had the chance to get one S2 for playing with this week-end.
What I've seen from the very first tests does not match the DNG file quality I've downloaded from the internet, it is much, much better. Hope the rest of this little test session will keep the same pace !

Just some silly small jpegs,
__________________________________________________________

You're very welcome anGy! I hope you will find what you are looking for.
Pramote
 
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anGy

Member
Although a 55mm equivalent focal length lens is a must have in its kit I'm not completely sold on the 70mm but the 120mm is a dream lens, here's a mix of both (don't know how the details & color will survive the jpeg/internet/forum compression...)










 
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anGy

Member
Little test shot between IQ180 & S2 on monopod to check lens drawing,

S2 120mm @f2,5 iso160


IQ180 150mm f2,8 iso50
 
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