M8 in Iraq

[jlm]

http://web.mac.com/kamberm/Leica_M8_Field_Test,_Iraq/Page_1.html

i met michael a few weeks ago, coded his zeiss 25 and went to an iraq pj slide show at his place in brooklyn. very nice guy, very impressive work. he has a tough job, to say the least

 

[robertwright]

His review was pretty tough, I hope the powers that be are reading it because he makes some excellent points.

 

[Terry]

His review was pretty tough, I hope the powers that be are reading it because he makes some excellent points.

He may make some good points like the shutter speed in the viewfinder on manual but some of his observations are strange to me....

1)complains about using filters and says it costs $500/year. Why per year? Does he destroy them. If he does, what would he do to the lens without filters?

2)to reset the ISO by accident from 320 to 2500 he would have had to bang the camera into himself and hit the set button, then he would have had to inadvertently hit the down button 3 times then either the play button, set button or shutter. I've never had the ISO reset on me and I carry the camera bouncing along my side a lot.

3)WB problems were solved by firmware update

4)slow wide angle lenses....boy when I just bought a D300 I felt spoiled by the wonderful M8 lens choices.

5)exposure problems on A? I don't seem to have big issues here.

 

[robsteve]

The whole review is just sour grapes. Leica gave him a camera to use and if he thought there was a problem using a M8 for his work, he didn't have to buy a M8 later.

All the points he make,except perhaps the mode buttons, were well known by the spring of 2007. He got to use a demo for a few months and yet he buys a M8 anyway and complains it doesn't fit his use?

His photos with noise show under exposure. In regards to general colour balance, it also looks like he was shooting with uncoded lenses. The AWB was probably his older firmware, but it was well known that there was a problem with the AWB when he was demoing the M8 in the spring of 2007.

Robert

 

[jaapv]

Power up 3 secs? 0.7.
Kelvin shift in WB? He claims it takes hours to correct -offer the guy a workshop.
Camera sluggish? RTFM.Set it to DNG only.
The write error looks more like a faulty SD card. Not surprising it could not be repaired by Leica.
Etc...

If you need a Jpeg camera, well, the M8 is not brilliant.
It seems to me he and the camera simply did not get on.

 

[glenerrolrd]

Personally I thought he made some excellent points and I hope Leica will listen . Having used a Nikon D3 and a Canon 5d ..both cameras have superior AWB,exposure accuracy and high ISO performance to the M8. This has only a minor impact on anything I would shoot but if you wanted right out of the camera publication ready files..then its a problem. This is most apparent in night shots with mixed light ..so for a photojournalist in a war zone..quite common. As he stated most photojournalists want a 28mm FOV..this is wide enough to include context yet has only minor distortion. I use my 21asph the most and even wide open it renders only limited bokeh when used on a M8(1.33). Nikon had a 28 1.4 and Canon a 24 1.4 as shown this cleans up a cluttered background while still providing a sense of place. The 35 1.4 summilux does a great job of this but on an M8 its not wide enough. The you have the standard list of quality control issues starting with the design itself,the production standards and the after sales service....none up to the professional Canon or Nikons. None of the above were issues with film M s . With that said..he might not get the image at all with a big, noisy dslr. Unfortunately he paints the kettle so black ..that most people won t look for the bright spots.

 

[TRSmith]

There does seem to be a fair amount of sour grapes. But two points come through loud and clear for me, even if I'm not a PJ in a war zone. Namely, lack of shutter speed display in the viewfinder on manual, and inaccurate frame lines. Both weaknesses seem contrary to what I grok as the essence of Leica accuracy and engineering, and both cause even a casual shooter like me problems on almost every shoot.

I have learned to live with them and ultimately, I still love my M8. But if there were ever an M9 and it contained fixes for those two issues alone, it would be enough to make me trade up to the new body.

 

[Woody Campbell]

I'm a happy M8 user, but the review sounds about right to me in the combat situations that he describes. The issues that he reports, high ISO performance, slow start-up, shallow buffer, and hassles with IR with non-Leica lenses, are all well documented and make this a poor choice of camera (and lens) in this application. Lets not kid ourselves. This is a horses for courses issue. His experience with returning the Leica is reasonably common (I have two bodies; both have been in for major service; one has made the trip twice). No real surprises here.

I continue to use mine every day in a less demanding environment where there is a different trade-off between more advanced electronics and environmental sealing vs. more distinctive lens quality. The solution to the reliability issue is to keep a backup close at hand.

 

[robertwright]

I don't think it is sour grapes, he pains to point out that he wants to like the camera since he is a long time M user. But side by side with his canon's and older M's the issues he raises are pretty solid.

I think the main point is here is a working photojournalist and conflict photographer, the kind of shooter that is Leica's home team, and he points out that the M8 and the M7 don't measure up in reliability or usability terms in comparison to either their forbearers or the current crop of dslr's.

I don't agree with everything he says in terms of IQ, but on all the other points it is hard to dispute, stuff we have heard before. My only wish is that Leica do something very different for them and evolve this camera quickly like any other manufacturer would do, incorporate the lessons learned. I have no problems with the price issue, you pay to play and if this is what you want to use, the money issue is not the primary issue. An M8-II with a host of improvements, eg: lower noise, faster electronics, recessed buttons, scroll wheel ev comp, more secure release/on/off, no bottom plate removal, accurate framelines, viewfinder shutter speeds, etc etc would be an improvement even at the existing 10mp resolution.

There is no reason not to do this except for the fact that Leica is too loyal to the old market that tries to maintain value in old equipment-this is basically what is killing them now. The value is in the lenses, and the body itself now has less value. The upgrade plan is not a good idea, they should focus (imo) on getting an improved body out the door quickly and let the resale market find it's own equilibrium.

Anyway this is an old saw.

 

[johnastovall]

When I think of Leica this is what I see. As it was, it should be once more.

 

[charlesphoto]

All valid points in my book. I don't think Mr Kamber wrote this in order to get up the noses of wealthy M8 owners. He wrote it because I'm sure a lot of his colleagues have questioned him about the usability of the M8 in high stress situations such as war zones.

I recently purchased a D3 because in so many ways the M8 just wasn't hacking it - poor low iso, crappy start up (missing lots of shots), poor framing, overall unreliability - even though I much prefer the form and function (and image quality) of the M. Hopefully Leica will actually listen to some pro users and make changes for the next body, integrating modern advances (hmm, like a separate external iso control and shutter speed indication in viewfinder) while staying (mostly) true to the M form.

Alas the M8 stays mostly on the shelf now, though it will come to Europe with me for a month long vacation this summer where it will hopefully work the whole way through. I'll have an M7 along for backup.

 

[nei1]

I have not and never intend to be anywhere near a war.However if by some devilish bad luck I had to put myself in danger to take a photograph it would be absurd if after risking ones life the camera was not good enough to take the picture.The experiences of this man must focus the attention on the usability and reliability of the camera to the nth degree.The film cameras passed all tests with flying colours,durable,simple cameras.It seems that leica have failed to over-engineer their digital M8 and have left it as a kind of cheap russian copy.Good enough for you or me but not a professional camera anymore,at least not in the way that its predecessors fame has baptized it with.Im sure hes being accurate,I hope leica can produce the digital legend to compare with its past even if it costs a great deal more.Its important that this camera is the best as it does ,despite itself ,produce the best photographs.

I feel I should add that Im a little angry as Ive been saving for some time to buy an M8,if this review is accurate then it is not an M8 Ill be buying but the best scanner I can afford instead,dont shoot me!

 

[Hank Graber]

Nothing he wrote is really news. If I needed a JPEG camera and weathersealing the M8 would not be even considered. The problem the M8 has is the film M's. Despite looking very similar it is a different camera and while it is closer to an M then any DSLR it's not the same experience handling or ruggedness wise so you can't assume that if you used an MP or M7 that the M8 will be it's digital twin.

While it doesn't quite clear the bar the film M's set it does do a few tricks the film M's can't. I was confined to ISO 100 35mm slide film. I moved to MF to be able to shoot color negative at ISO 640. The M8 does better then my MF RF with Fuji 800 shot at 640 in a much smaller package with faster lenses. So the M8 does bring somethings to the party the film M's do not.

Photography has always been about choosing your compromises equipment wise.

 

[S.P.]

Leica was not succesfull to transform all the things that made the M-Cameras best for reportage and available light into the digital age.

M8 is a toy, not a tool.

 

[Terry]

I feel I should add that Im a little angry as Ive been saving for some time to buy an M8,if this review is accurate then it is not an M8 Ill be buying but the best scanner I can afford instead,dont shoot me!

This article should not be used as the definitive data point on the usability of the M8. As I wrote in my post some of the things he wrote about are a little strange (like changing ISO by mistake). While the M8 isn't perfect, there are many many people that would not trade their M8 for any version of a film M. I believe Leica has a test drive program with dealers where you can sign one out and try it. If you can take advantage of that, I would urge you to do it and judge for yourself what needs it meets and where it falls short.

 

[jlm]

thing is, the camera could have been so much more useable for Kamber had a few mechanical details been more appropriate, none of which are really pushing the envelope of design compared to what many other much cheaper digital cameras have achieved. In particular, the framing, on/off switch, card retrieval, button sensitivity, shutter speed display, etc.
YMMV, of course

 

[nei1]

TEBnewyork,youre right of course but Id started to have doubts since the upgrade path started,this should be a free option on a new camera(shutter),its as if theyare trying to milk the public.The over-engineering I mentioned wont mean that Ill be taking the camera to war but it would have given it a long and trouble free life,I like to keep my cameras.I think what Ill do is indeed buy that scanner and wait to see how the M9 turns out,if its full frame then thats the framing sorted and all decent digital cameras should be waterproofed.It also seems to me that all digital sensors are affected a lot by heat generated by the camera and maybe the new sensor will be better able to deal with that. All the best,Neil.

 

[Chris C]

M8 is a toy, not a tool.

That is far too extreme.

The article this thread refers to will, I'm sure, be noticed at Leica and I think it's acutely focused criticism will stir them. My hope is that Leica's complacency with various aspects of M8 design, manufacture, quality control, and marketing have been shaken out of the company; time will tell. However, the price for earlier complacency is the Iraq article and similar criticisms which are damaging to the company now. Within in it's own narrow frame of reference I found the article to be mostly fair, but for those committed workers within Leica trying to raise their standards I'm sure it will feel like a slap.

............... Chris

 

[Maggie O]

The M8 is most definitely not a toy, in the same way a BMW M3 is not a toy- you wouldn't want to use it to carry troops into battle, but it's very good at what it does.

Honestly, what is it about the M8 that turns otherwise reasonable people into hyperbole machines?

 

[TRSmith]

Honestly, what is it about the M8 that turns otherwise reasonable people into hyperbole machines?

The price.