The GetDPI Photography Forum

Great to see you here. Join our insightful photographic forum today and start tapping into a huge wealth of photographic knowledge. Completing our simple registration process will allow you to gain access to exclusive content, add your own topics and posts, share your work and connect with other members through your own private inbox! And don’t forget to say hi!

M8 in Iraq

fotografz

Well-known member
Perhaps I am a member of the меньшинство.
Do I miss the display of shutter speed in the M8 in manual mode- NO I just set it on the dial. Seems a lot like the MP. I love my M8...but
Sure, The issues are there, and the M8 has more than its share of them, but the images Oh La La! really more to do with weak AA and 72lp/mm resolution along with some lenses that are not half bad.
My D3 is relegated to limited roles that the M8 cannot handle. It is a boring camera with an over-active paparazzi mode.
Oh, and no, the M8 is not the be-all-and-end-all, it is not an all-weather-night-fighter-bomber-reconnaissance drone. It is a decent camera with a few problems.
What I hope that Leica hears, is that I don't give a rat's gluteus maximus if there is 1.5 stories behind an M8 and I loath the Hermes/Montblanc marketing image, what I hope is that we finally get rid of the mad hatter display, the need to occasionally re-boot by removing the battery, and for GOD'S sake please fix service and figure out how to calibrate your lenses and rangefinders. Buy out DAG for whatever it takes and just do IT or give IT UP.
The line that divides love and hate is fine indeed. Pleasure and pain and not strangers either.
Please save me from this whining and show me some pictures that you bothered to focus.
-bob
The D3 is hardly boring ... unless you deem actually working every time you need to take a photo to be boring. So, yes the D3 lacks the spine tingling suspense of going dead at the most inopportune moment ... and who can argue with the titillation of sending a M lens in 3 times to be calibrated ... or my favorite initial thrilling moment ... magenta Tuxedos with M8s that also that came replete with inaccurate focusing calibration right from the factory. Life needs adversity to make you stronger, and the M8 experience has made me a virtual "He-Man." ;)

For decades, my primary back-up to any SLR/DSLR while shooting weddings, or any other "one chance" assignment, was a demure M6 or M7 slung over my shoulder. I could always count on it if the primary camera hiccuped. Alas, that time has pasted. :(

As of late, a little D300 with a nice array of Zeiss optics has crawled up the M8's backside as a small alternative for travel and walkabouts. If Zeiss ever delivers the legendary 21 and a 135/1.8 ... oh, oh.:clap:

The real final "excitement" will come after all this sorting out is complete, and the problems that were made my problems have been dealt with, the M9 will appear and turn a $10,000 investment and almost 2 years of frustration into a lame duck ... all because I foolishly associated my previous M experience and trust in Leica with this camera. :banghead:

One should NEVER bring emotional baggage from an old relationship into a new one. :)
 

Ben Rubinstein

Active member
Whether or not the M8 was the right tool for him, and his previous film M's were, I think he may have a valid point that at a $5000 price point it should have been the right tool - for most everything. You can only justify that kind of price if the tool is something far better than the $2000 competition and with all the QC issues, the lack of field testing, etc, why exactly does it justify Rolls Royce pricing? What does it have that justifies 2.5X the price of a 5D? Yes the chip may be something special but we know that it doesn't cost that much relatively, the build quality seems to be down to canon level (the ultimate curse!) and I get a 3 day turnaround with CPS for repair. If the M8 wants to be a professional tool then as Marc says it needs to be reliable, it needs extremely strong pro backup. If it's a rich mans toy then why does it even begin to justify $5000?

Please don't take this as an attack I'm genuinly puzzled as to how Leica can justify even half of that price tag for any other reason rather than they can. It has no expensive AF motors, no expensive 10fps shutter units, no incredibly sophisticated metering modes with the years of research needed, no weatherproofing and a chip that has to be less expensive than the 5D's. If it had diamond build quality and QC then it would be worth it, but it doesn't does it?
 

Terry

New member
Whether or not the M8 was the right tool for him, and his previous film M's were, I think he may have a valid point that at a $5000 price point it should have been the right tool - for most everything. You can only justify that kind of price if the tool is something far better than the $2000 competition and with all the QC issues, the lack of field testing, etc, why exactly does it justify Rolls Royce pricing? What does it have that justifies 2.5X the price of a 5D? Yes the chip may be something special but we know that it doesn't cost that much relatively, the build quality seems to be down to canon level (the ultimate curse!) and I get a 3 day turnaround with CPS for repair. If the M8 wants to be a professional tool then as Marc says it needs to be reliable, it needs extremely strong pro backup. If it's a rich mans toy then why does it even begin to justify $5000?

Please don't take this as an attack I'm genuinly puzzled as to how Leica can justify even half of that price tag for any other reason rather than they can. It has no expensive AF motors, no expensive 10fps shutter units, no incredibly sophisticated metering modes with the years of research needed, no weatherproofing and a chip that has to be less expensive than the 5D's. If it had diamond build quality and QC then it would be worth it, but it doesn't does it?
They don't have the scale of Canon to cover R&D and other costs across millions of cameras.
 

Chris C

Member
I'm in pedantic mode. The earlier Robert Capa analogy was not a good one; as far as we know Capa got his pictures of the Normandy landings. His camera worked under pressure as did he, the films were rushed back for processing and were successfully processed, and then were melted in a too-hot drying cabinet by an inexperienced and over excited processing bunny. For the metaphor to work in the M8 context, that would be perhaps be the equivalent of a hardrive death after images have been downloaded from an M8. Not even the biggest Leica critic would blame Leica for a hardrive failure.

I have been a consistent critic of aspects of the M8; but the damned thing still has allure for me despite it's irritations. I can't stand bodgers and habitual compromisers, they always irritate me. Leica seem to have got within range of making a classic camera with the M8 [despite my misgivings about certain 'legacy' holy cows that I find anachronistic], and yet a 'that will do' culture ruined that worthy aspiration. I was a first time Leica customer with my M8, 'that will do' wasn't and isn't good enough for me!

And yet; I still hold on to the camera.

..................... Chris
 

fotografz

Well-known member
I don't think I would miss my M8 and 3 lens travel kit - until I sold it....
I agree with that ... since I did it once with my film Ms and paid the price to rebuild it again. So, that's why I keep trying.

But there is a difference between not getting a nice personal shot which can be very frustrating, and not getting the Bride walking down the asile with her Dad ... which, in it's own way, is also a land mine :rolleyes:
 

PeterA

Well-known member
Again another example of - Horses for courses Marc - the pain of owning an M8 is considerably eased by having an M3 and an MP to use the glass with when in the TRX mood....if they ever bring out a full frame ( or larger than full frame) that will be a camera to own..thats when the 35 lux will become king of the hill top of the pops again..

btw speaking of wedding shots..my favourite of yours was teh bride gettign dressed shot..smokin hot that one.

You can keep your R series whatever they bring out - no interest - wish them good luck trying to compete with MFD companies who I think ( fiinally) are starting to understand that the market is bigger if their prices are lower ..LOL
 

TRSmith

Subscriber Member
Forgive my intrusion into a history I'm unsure of. My gap in shooting "for real" between about 1983 and 2006 leaves a big hole in my grasp of the digital revolution.

But, didn't Nikon (and Canon) start with several models of digital cameras that have now evolved into the D3 (for example)? Wasn't there a D1, etc.? And didn't those early versions come with their own unique set of challenges? I ask because my impression is that the M8 is Leica's first entry into the "pro" level digital camera.

That's how I understood it and was still able to justify the purchase of the M8 in my own mind since I felt the rangefinder approach and the lens quality were worth the cost of admission. I went into Leica territory fully expecting there to be a follow on camera body that would evolve from the M8 in the same way the D2H evolved from the D1 (or whatever the path actually was).

For absolutely no good reason, I choose to believe that Leica will eventually get it right with digital. In the meantime, I love the kisses I get from the M8, and can live with the slaps.
 

charlesphoto

New member
The problem with the M8 as a "working camera" is when it's not working.:rolleyes: Mine spent a better part of last year being worked on or replaced. Even after that I still have the occasional need for reset and the occasional gray shot (and no it's not the blasted card - it's the camera software!).

I think Mr Kamber expected the M8 to work as film M's always have (well up to the M7 at least) albiet with at least some of digital's mod cons. I think that those who have never used film M's don't quite get the level of frustration or disappointment some of us have felt. Like why exactly did Leica feel the need to monkey with a legacy of the way framelines were set up? Just some really bad decisions made, I guess to pander to the "1.5 stories" set (???). I also would have much preferred a sync plug vs a self timer (haven't used it yet, except in accident:mad:).

The single worse thing about the M8 though is when I pick it up to fire the shutter and nothing happens (camera is already set to on). When you miss a shot, .7 sec startup time may as well be 3 sec or a minute for that matter. Nikon/Canon measure their start up times in the microseconds.

The single best thing about the M8 is the images. They do look great. Just getting there is more of a struggle than it should be (and I've been using M's and Medium Format rangefinders for 15 years so it's not a user issue). It really didn't need to be that way.
 

Bob

Administrator
Staff member
One of the best things about the M8 is that it influenced me to buy an MP.:thumbs:
-bob
 

LJL

New member
Tim,
You are correct that Nikon and Canon entered with early models that were not stellar, except for price. However, that was also when digital was just coming into play, and nobody was sure how that was going to work or not. With Leica, it seems to be quite a bit different. They are coming to the party quite late, so they should have learned a lot more lessons than they appear to have when they released the M8. And they did have some digital experience (not all good, but not all bad either) with the DMR before that, so "excuses" start to get whittled away even more.

Not saying that they should not have some slack given, but honestly, they seem to be quite slow to learn and doggedly stubborn about "old ways" that may not be quite as germane in today's markets and with the greater demands and offerings in those markets. Not saying the M8 is not a very interesting achievement, as it is. It just should not have been released with as many teething problems, nor with the expectations that it was truly at the same professional level as other DSLRs, or its film predecessors, because it is not. The glass is wonderful. The body is wonderfully nostalgic, but lacks the finished details in operation, testing and use that their mechanical bodies helped earn their reputation.

I enjoy my M8 and lenses very much. However, I have not been able to count on it as the professional tools that I can always count on to deliver for me, as my Canons do. I prefer the M8 image to the Canon images, but I do not prefer the problems and erratics it also still brings, and should not. We all know "the list", and much of it has been repeated here.

I agree with Marc that one should never use "sunk costs" in making future investment plans. That includes emotions and "blind spots". This PJ should have tested the M8 and spent a bit of time learning about the issues before committing to it as his main tool. He, like a lot of us, bought into a lot of promise and marketing and maybe some nostalgia, and a lot of that was not being delivered by the M8. Has that gotten better? Maybe, but I still do not see it for use beyond my casual and travel interests, or as an "in a pinch" back-up to shooting assignments. But that is me.... I remain a bit disappointed with the M8, but that gets washed over every now and then when it lets me capture things that would be very difficult to get with other cameras. Love/almost hate relationship at times ;-)

LJ
 

Seascape

New member
Well my M8 does have many useful attributes, and while I do not have to use it professionally, I much prefer it to the DSLR options currently available.

What it has done, is changed my thinking on 35mm film usage, and moved me more towards MF film for anything requiring higher print quality. With MFDB's improving it is not a bad place to be.

I find the M8 as an everyday companion, a most enjoyable photographic device. It may not be a camera for every application, but as a compact, high image quality digital camera, I much prefer it to what is currently being offered by the DSLR manufacturers.

As far as sorting out performance issues, lets not forget that DSLR's are now a few generations into production, and names as reveared as Canon still drop faulty designs onto the "faithful", even with their top of the line PRO model cameras. These days, everyone is a Beta Tester :(
 

jlm

Workshop Member
not to be missed is that Kamber wanted the M8 to work; based on his leica history and modern needs, it would have/ could have/ been his answer. the review shows he gave it the acid test and it didn't pass. so comments about it not being the right camera for his use, he should have known better, he should have tested it before committing, etc. really miss the point. what he presents is the testing results and his conclusion is that it is not the right camera for him and why.
 

charlesphoto

New member
not to be missed is that Kamber wanted the M8 to work; based on his leica history and modern needs, it would have/ could have/ been his answer. the review shows he gave it the acid test and it didn't pass. so comments about it not being the right camera for his use, he should have known better, he should have tested it before committing, etc. really miss the point. what he presents is the testing results and his conclusion is that it is not the right camera for him and why.
I agree wholeheartedly. Big difference in "testing" using on a multi-day, fast paced, need to deliver job (war, wedding, advert no matter) vs an ambling vacation through cobbled European streets or more often than not the hotel lobby, backyard flower, wife/girlfriend/dinner party, and of course the ubiquitous messy desktop. Any camera may seem like the end all be all in those sort of situations but start jumping out of a humvee under fire or take a canoe up the Amazon or even deal with a snooty art director and the camera may take on a whole 'nother dimension. Testing on the job is a must, just so long as one has other options and backup (Kamber did).
 
S

sirvine

Guest
I read this review the other day and concluded that the reviewer has no idea how to process RAW files from the M8. His complaints about low-light performance and high noise at 2500 ISO are a clear indication of this. Also, he complains about white balance performance, which is also evidence of a lack of understanding about how digital post-processing works.

As for his complaint that the self-timer is too easily mistakenly selected, I tend to agree. Leica should have put continuous shot at the left end of the selector.

I also disagree about buttons being too easily activated. A leather case easily fixes that problem, and any other solution (such as an integrated cover) would be more obnoxious than the current configuration.

As for mechanical problems, I cannot take issue there. I've never had any myself, but I recognize that many do.
 

mwalker

Subscriber Member
I leave for Klinsey Russia tomorrow. I have it all riding on two M8's.
I'll return on July 25th, I'll post my experiences then.
 

dseelig

Member
When you are shooting in a war zone you do not deal with leather cases they slow you down changing batteries and cards. Also when shooting like this jpegs are the rule of the day . Me I wonder why in terms of electronics why they did not use the resources of panasonic who they have a huge relationship with.
 

johnastovall

Deceased, but remembered fondly here...
The Leica M8 has more
and


Than any digital camera made has much to do with why I have one and the film ones ever more.

The is much more to life than technology - the sound of frogs jumping into ponds.
 

Bob

Administrator
Staff member
The Leica M8 has more
and


Than any digital camera made has much to do with why I have one and the film ones ever more.

The is much more to life than technology - the sound of frogs jumping into ponds.
侘び と 寂び わ なn 意味 です か
or something like that
Do you mean proud or lonely and loneliness or quietly, or mature?
-bob
 
Top