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"I Wonder Why" R Lens Ponderings @ 120kph

robmac

Well-known member
Sunny day here yesterday, a 3hr drive, sun roof open, windows down, stereo blasting, cigar in hand (in wife's car :rolleyes:) so as autopilot kicks-in and your mind wanders at 120kph, you start to ponder things:

1. Why do folks towing travel trailers the size of Monaco insist on taking the hilly/windy 2 lane route vs the 4 line highway?

2. How come my lottery numbers never came up on Saturday?

3. Why do M users get all these snazzy SHORT APO & Asph lenses with "a dead-man's EKG" MTFs and we R users (albeit for this one on a 1Ds2) have to wait until 90mm? I know they all think they're special cause HCB used one, but come on.

Kept having visions of a 35/2 AA on my 1Ds2 (or maybe, ya never know, a FF R10 --- see #2 above).

Seriously, anyone have any idea why Solms didn't put together a 28 or 35/2 R AA, etc? Money? Time? Treating R like the red-headed 'gift' from the milkman?
 

Stuart Richardson

Active member
Well, as far as I am aware, there are no M APO lenses shorter than 75mm either. There are ASPH lenses, but APO is extremely difficult to design for shorter focal lengths, so that is probably why you don't see them below 90mm on the R system. Perhaps they will make the 75/2 available for the R system, but I don't think it will happen unless they come out with a bunch of new lenses for the R system. There are already plenty of good telephoto R lenses, so the 75/2 is not as critical as it was in the M system. Most R users would probably go for the 90, 100, or 180mm. Or the 80/1.4.

I do wish, however, that they would give us the 35/1.4 ASPH. Other than that, I am happy with the R lenses. The 50/1.4 E60 is not as sharp as the 50/1.4 ASPH, but it has a nicer character, and the 28/2.8 is reputed to be superbly sharp. I would love the 24mm elmarit (not the minolta one that we currently have).

I think that part of the problem with the wide angles is that, while they are all retrofocus, they are not THAT retrofocus. I don't think they could use them more or less unmodified on the R cameras...I believe they would require a significant optical redesign.
 

robsteve

Subscriber
It is really only the 35mm and 24mm in the R that are behind the times. The 19mm is probably better than the 21mm ASPH and the 28mm is probably better than the new 28mm Elmarit ASPH.

As for why there has not been a new 35mm Summicron, it was probably good enough in the film days. The f2 was used for reportage and was sharp enough in the middle and not bad when stopped down for shooting scenery. It is only on digital sensors and compared to the 28mm Elmarit-r did the 35mm Summicron seem lacking. The 35mm Summilux is supposed to be the better of the 35mm R lenses, though I have never owned one.

I suspect if there are new lenses for the R at Photokina, they will perform as well as the current M designs.

Robert

Robert
 

robmac

Well-known member
I just lumped APO & ASP together in my question, but as far as I know the only R lens short of 90 that has an ASPH element is the 35-70/4 - and they barely advertise the fact, yet most current M lenses on the wider end are ASPH.

As you say, can't see a 75mm being a big hit in R land.
 

robmac

Well-known member
Rob - explanation makes sense re: 35/2. As you say, any update to the R line would all but mandate a re-work of some of the R wides.
 

Stuart Richardson

Active member
Same for the 28-90...also an asph and absolutely superb. I think they decided to focus their attention on the zooms (which was a good idea), so I am not too upset in this front. I would like the 35/1.4 ASPH available though. I have the 35/1.4 R, and while nice, it just does not hold a candle to the 35/1.4 ASPH.
 

robmac

Well-known member
Rob - Nah, one day round trip to the Valley.

You're right, forgot about the 21-35 and 28-90s Asph. So as Stuart say, the wider zooms are covered, the primes, not so much.

For some reason, the 21-35 and 28-90 are not lenses you hear mentioned often - same with the (now discontinued) 105-280 and 80-200/4 as compared to the more commonly discussed 35-70/4, (famous) 35-70/2.8 and 70-180 APO.
 
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robsteve

Subscriber
The 21-35mm and 28-90mm do not work on the Canons without modifications to the lenses, so you probably don't hear much about them on the alternative forums. Neither does the 35-70mm f2.8, but with enough shaved off the mirror it will work on a Canon. It got a lot of attention when Guy Mancuso had one on his DMR and later SonC bought one and used it on a modified 5d, as well as a DMR.

Robert
 

paulmoore

New member
It is really only the 35mm and 24mm in the R that are behind the times. The 19mm is probably better than the 21mm ASPH and the 28mm is probably better than the new 28mm Elmarit ASPH.

As for why there has not been a new 35mm Summicron, it was probably good enough in the film days. The f2 was used for reportage and was sharp enough in the middle and not bad when stopped down for shooting scenery. It is only on digital sensors and compared to the 28mm Elmarit-r did the 35mm Summicron seem lacking. The 35mm Summilux is supposed to be the better of the 35mm R lenses, though I have never owned one.

I suspect if there are new lenses for the R at Photokina, they will perform as well as the current M designs.

Robert

Robert
I would love to see a r 24 and or 28mm f2 of 1.8 - my older 28 2.8 is really lacking.. and so are my eyes -- anything smaller than f2 on a wide angle is just a pain to focus. The 35mm lux is a beauty but with the crop not really a true wideangle. R users are the stepchildren of solms.. but maybe that will change with a new digital slr platform. I am holding off and making do with my current 28 until the future becomes more clear.
 

dfarkas

Workshop Member
Actually, I'm a big fan of the 35 f/2 R. Very easy to focus, never miss a shot. Also focuses extremely close. Pretty compact. And can be very sharp when stopped down just a touch, but perfectly usable wide open, too. I look at shots with the 35 on the DMR and they have such great micro contrast and crispness, yet with subtle contrast overall.

The 28 R is phenomenal, as is the 19 R, the 90 APO, 100 Macro, 180 (both), 105-280, 280 APO. Even the 2x APO is incredible. In my opinion, much like Robert's, the R line is pretty stellar with the exception of the 24 R. What will be introduced at Photokina promises to be pretty exciting. I for one can't wait.

David
 

robmac

Well-known member
I was more curious as WHY outside the zooms, there wasn't the selection of wider ASPHs like the 28/2, in R etc. My assumption is that Solms has/is putting their efforts into the M line first and foremost. An ASPH zoom is nice, but I think most folks paying for Leica would prefer either a prime - or a fixed aperture zoom.

As for specific lenses; I do think it's time I picked up a used 35/2 - was quite impressed when I used RobSteve's some time ago.

If my budget and bloody Canon allowed me to, I'd own the 19 V2 (modified) and 28V2 - no matter how little I used them. The 90AA I've owned and stupidly sold and am now looking to replace - or do so via the 100 APO (clean used 90 AAs (I know Rob, I know...) at decent prices are pretty scarce) .

Speaking of the 100, I'm now playing with courtesy of RobS and it is stellar. Both 180s I've owned and offer exceptional IQ and ease of quick focusing - again a budget vs. usage-time issue. However, if I down size to the 5D to have a more compact unit, a 180/2.8 APO may make it back in my cabinet.

The 105-280 I've used at Rob's and it was nice. Bit of an orphan though - not a lens that tends to be in much demand - also a bit slow. That said, an extra stop would have done truly nasty things to the price anyway. The 280 APO and 70-180 APO I've always wanted to try.
 
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Stuart Richardson

Active member
Despite the variable aperture, the 28-90 is an astonishingly good lens. I have no doubt that it is a better performer than the 35/2, because it is better than the 35/1.4 and the 35/1.4 is supposed to be better than the 35/2. Transitive property of equality and all that.
 

robmac

Well-known member
Sadly, while the 21-35 will work on a 1 Series by removing the rear shroud, the 28-90 - not so much.
 

woodyspedden

New member
Sadly, while the 21-35 will work on a 1 Series by removing the rear shroud, the 28-90 - not so much.
If you remove the shroud from the 28-90 you lose the spring that controls the stop down lever. The only way to use the 28-90 on the Canon bodies is to shave the mirror.

Woody
 

EH21

Member
I've been really pleased with all the R lenses that I have used including the 24mm elmarit. That lens coupled to the DMR was really great for shooting people, particularly figurative work. The 100mm apo, the 60mm macro elmarit and 80 lux are standouts - good for everything. I agree that the newer zooms are fantastic!
 

robmac

Well-known member
Over on LUF there are some comments from (IIRC) a Leica Europe exec during a meeting with some users (I assume) saying (re: Photokina):
----------
"Mr. Daniel from Leica told us some interesting things:

R-System:
- No new R lens at photocina
- R9 still in production (on low level)
- autofocus may come (manual focus is not a dogma for leica)

We had many questions, but no concrete info about a new digital R Camera.

This is from a French thread, the German user Forum confirms this information
after the Meeting last weekend.

Apparently we will have to wait for a R10 another year, maybe with the help of
Jenoptik they will make it.

As it was said in this thread: The challenge to do it right with a DSRL R10 is
much higher than with DRF M8, R10 will have to face fiercest competition."
-----------------

A lot of changes can happen with a CEO change - prior chap may have been making promises or implications Leica wasn't ready/willing to deliver on - at least this year.

Personally - I think R users should plan as if any R10 as they'd like to see it (*) has a low probability of becoming a market reality (vs. a trade show mockup) any time soon. Plan accordingly and if they pull a rabbit out of a hat in '09 or '10, see what the market alternatives look like at that point.

With Nikon shaking things up with the D3/x and now (it looks like) D700, plus what Canon will do in response to same, PLUS the NEW added pressure from $10,000 entry MFDB kits - the longer Leica waits the worst the business case becomes - and the less likely the R10 trigger will (or should) be pulled.

* As a tech head I'm all for an R10. But from a business perspective I fail to see ANY wisdom in getting into the DSLR market (at least on their own) at this juncture. Sony is one thing, but for a firm with Leica's issues (service & support), small size and resources it could cost the company dearly.
 
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