Do lenses work differently on film and digital?

[Chuck Jones]

I hope that's the case. But I need to see it by myself before asking the tech for another CLA. Though, the tech did suggested me to simply re-sell to somebody who shoots films, rather than sending it back for another CLA...

Khiromu, with due respect, there is no question that digital alignment is much more demanding than film for exactitude. With digital, a .01 mm difference does make a difference. But specs are specs, and just because film is more forgiving doesn't mean that the tech didn't make a mistake. If the 28 'Cron is adjusted correctly, and your body is adjusted to specification as well, the 28 'Cron is right up there with the best of the Leica lenses made.

Even the tech's suggestion that you pawn it off on someone with less critical eye makes me very suspicious. What happens if he goes digital one day? I'm sorry, but to me, if a tech told me that I would take it as a blow off from someone who doesn't want to take responsibility for a mistake. Almost as lame an excuse as just having him tell me to shoot it at f/8, and the symptoms disappear. I'd :bang: the sucker :thumbdown:

 

[khiromu]

Khiromu, with due respect, there is no question that digital alignment is much more demanding than film for exactitude. With digital, a .01 mm difference does make a difference. But specs are specs, and just because film is more forgiving doesn't mean that the tech didn't make a mistake. If the 28 'Cron is adjusted correctly, and your body is adjusted to specification as well, the 28 'Cron is right up there with the best of the Leica lenses made.

Even the tech's suggestion that you pawn it off on someone with less critical eye makes me very suspicious. What happens if he goes digital one day? I'm sorry, but to me, if a tech told me that I would take it as a blow off from someone who doesn't want to take responsibility for a mistake. Almost as lame an excuse as just having him tell me to shoot it at f/8, and the symptoms disappear. I'd :bang: the sucker :thumbdown:

Thank you for your comment.
Yes, I agree with you.
I am now awaiting from the buyer for some more test shots since I no longer have digital body, I cannot "prove" that the lens is mis-aligned or something that does not work with digital body.

Hiromu

 

[John Black]

Clearly, your example is out of adjustment.

You don't know that. The buyer's M9 could be out of alignment and the 50 Lux may have calibration issues as well. A car's right tire can be worn and pull the right, and the left tire worn as well and pull to the left. The car will go straight, but it doesn't mean the car is in proper spec. And replace one tire, and the equilibrium is disrupted. There are too many variables here and nothing has been eliminated at this point. It's a lousy position for the seller because their lens may be perfectly fine, or maybe not.

Another potential issue with the 28mm Summicron is the front element - which can become loose over time. Once that happens, the lens needs to go to Leica for service or someone who can collimate the optics back to proper specifications.

 

[khiromu]

You don't know that. The buyer's M9 could be out of alignment and the 50 Lux may have calibration issues as well. A car's right tire can be worn and pull the right, and the left tire worn as well and pull to the left. The car will go straight, but it doesn't mean the car is in proper spec. And replace one tire, and the equilibrium is disrupted. There are too many variables here and nothing has been eliminated at this point. It's a lousy position for the seller because their lens may be perfectly fine, or maybe not.

Another potential issue with the 28mm Summicron is the front element - which can become loose over time. Once that happens, the lens needs to go to Leica for service or someone who can collimate the optics back to proper specifications.

Yes, that's why I don't want to conclude if the CLA was done poorly, or the buyer's M9 has mis-calibration, or anything else. It's possible that the CLA was perfect, but the mail carrier mis-handle the package.

Anyway, I want to see it in my hand with my own shooting habit if there is any problem with it.

Hiromu

 

[Chuck Jones]

You don't know that. The buyer's M9 could be out of alignment and the 50 Lux may have calibration issues as well. A car's right tire can be worn and pull the right, and the left tire worn as well and pull to the left. The car will go straight, but it doesn't mean the car is in proper spec. And replace one tire, and the equilibrium is disrupted. There are too many variables here and nothing has been eliminated at this point. It's a lousy position for the seller because their lens may be perfectly fine, or maybe not.

Another potential issue with the 28mm Summicron is the front element - which can become loose over time. Once that happens, the lens needs to go to Leica for service or someone who can collimate the optics back to proper specifications.

John, your right, I don't "absolutely" know that for sure. You're correct, I am making an assumption before physically examining the lens in question myself. And yes, the other lens his buyer has, the 50mm 'Lux, could have alignment problems as well. The body cam could be out of adjustment just as easily too. Or a combination of all three possibly. But that frankly is not likely, given that both lenses are not off, just the 28mm. Having owned both, I dismiss the body and user error, as the 50mm 'Lux is much more sensitive to calibration faults than the 28 'Cron is.

It is also certainly possible that the lens took a severe shock in shipping serious enough to knock the front element loose, but that also is going to take a professional examination to determine. Not something your going to fix in your garage shop in either case. What some people forget is though a technician may be Leica trained and certified (I wasn't aware Leica certified outside technicians either, when did they start doing that?) they do not always have access to the very sensitive & extremely expensive equipment to properly calibrate to the standards that Leica does. 0.01 is a very tight tolerance.

Kindermann up in Canada used to be the Leica distributor for Canada, but gave it up as the gear necessary to do repairs was way too costly to afford for such a relatively small market. They had Leica trained and certified warranty repair technicians on staff, and back when they did repairs were a lot faster than Leica in the States or in Germany on repair turnarounds. But they do not own the test gigs necessary for alignment or repair of the newer lenses, which the 28 'Cron falls under the description of.

Given that nobody but Leica themselves (who actually MAKE their own tools!) own precise enough tools to do the alignment perfectly (call Leica NJ and ask them, or call Kindrmann directly to check for yourself), and given that I heard nothing from anybody about the lens being bad before it went in for a simple CLA, combined with the 50mm 'Lux working perfectly (that lens is a real bear when it's off), I will stand by my first conclusion, the lens is out and needs to go to someone who can properly align it correctly. Which, to my understanding, is either to Leica in NJ (who now has invested the huge cost in the necessary alignment gear, and can repair most everything M save for the Noct I'm told) or directly to Solms in Germany. I wouldn't trust a problem lens to anyone else, as nobody else has the correct equipment to do that fine an adjustment to guarantee the result. This is an exacting procedure, NOT for the faint of heart.

It's so hard to do right, that even Leica sometimes blows it, and the lens needs to go back for correction.

As always, just my opinion.

 

[khiromu]

John, your right, I don't "absolutely" know that for sure. You're correct, I am making an assumption before physically examining the lens in question myself. And yes, the other lens his buyer has, the 50mm 'Lux, could have alignment problems as well. The body cam could be out of adjustment just as easily too. Or a combination of all three possibly. But that frankly is not likely, given that both lenses are not off, just the 28mm. Having owned both, I dismiss the body and user error, as the 50mm 'Lux is much more sensitive to calibration faults than the 28 'Cron is.

It is also certainly possible that the lens took a severe shock in shipping serious enough to knock the front element loose, but that also is going to take a professional examination to determine. Not something your going to fix in your garage shop in either case. What some people forget is though a technician may be Leica trained and certified (I wasn't aware Leica certified outside technicians either, when did they start doing that?) they do not always have access to the very sensitive & extremely expensive equipment to properly calibrate to the standards that Leica does. 0.01 is a very tight tolerance.

Kindermann up in Canada used to be the Leica distributor for Canada, but gave it up as the gear necessary to do repairs was way too costly to afford for such a relatively small market. They had Leica trained and certified warranty repair technicians on staff, and back when they did repairs were a lot faster than Leica in the States or in Germany on repair turnarounds. But they do not own the test gigs necessary for alignment or repair of the newer lenses, which the 28 'Cron falls under the description of.

Given that nobody but Leica themselves (who actually MAKE their own tools!) own precise enough tools to do the alignment perfectly (call Leica NJ and ask them, or call Kindrmann directly to check for yourself), and given that I heard nothing from anybody about the lens being bad before it went in for a simple CLA, combined with the 50mm 'Lux working perfectly (that lens is a real bear when it's off), I will stand by my first conclusion, the lens is out and needs to go to someone who can properly align it correctly. Which, to my understanding, is either to Leica in NJ (who now has invested the huge cost in the necessary alignment gear, and can repair most everything M save for the Noct I'm told) or directly to Solms in Germany. I wouldn't trust a problem lens to anyone else, as nobody else has the correct equipment to do that fine an adjustment to guarantee the result. This is an exacting procedure, NOT for the faint of heart.

It's so hard to do right, that even Leica sometimes blows it, and the lens needs to go back for correction.

As always, just my opinion.

You may be right. I may have to send it to Leica, instead of anybody else.

By the way, do anybody know the cost of simple CLA by Leica NJ? I was quoted for about $150 for CLA on this lens, and I assume Leica charges more.

Hiromu

 

[D&A]

You don't know that. The buyer's M9 could be out of alignment and the 50 Lux may have calibration issues as well. A car's right tire can be worn and pull the right, and the left tire worn as well and pull to the left. The car will go straight, but it doesn't mean the car is in proper spec. And replace one tire, and the equilibrium is disrupted. There are too many variables here and nothing has been eliminated at this point. It's a lousy position for the seller because their lens may be perfectly fine, or maybe not.

Another potential issue with the 28mm Summicron is the front element - which can become loose over time. Once that happens, the lens needs to go to Leica for service or someone who can collimate the optics back to proper specifications.

This is why I menioned in my post above, that the quickest easier way to determine if the basic problem is with the lens, was to try it out if at all possible on at least two properly calibrated M8/M9 bodies. Hopefully there is a dealer or other users in your area that the lens can be tried out on their bodies.

On a separate note, DAG (Don Goldberg) would be quite capable of focus adjusting this lens and besides his expertise, he uses a properly calibrated M9 to check focusing after adjustment. Besides Leica, he would be a superb individual to have check out the lens with.

Dave (D&A)

 

[Bill Caulfeild-Browne]

I wouldn't waste your time checking a 28mm 'Cron ASPH on film. Just go ahead and send It back for adjustment. It should make little to no difference. The 28 'Cron is a GREAT lens that focuses just fine on M8 or M9, and is tack sharp on both bodies, in my own experience. Having used it extensively on my M8 and a bit now on my M9 I give it two thumbs up for sure. One of the top four or five lenses made for a Leica M in my opinion. Clearly, your example is out of adjustment.

Couldn't agree more, Chuck!
Bill

 

[thrice]

Sherry does not work on digital.
And the lens was back from her.

Last I checked, M lenses didn't have any electronics in them... My 35 lux asph came back just fine from her and was used on the M9. If the 28 Cron was out of calibration after being set up by Sherry, I'd send it back.