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M9 sensor glass cracked all by itself!

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Sorry guys ABSOLUTELY NO EXCUSES. Bottom line if you sell it to customers regardless of any vendors issues you are responsible for it. Which means testing all parts thoroughly before implementing them into final production and on the streets. And yes i worked in the aerospace industry for 16 years and we are talking real lives there. You simply can't keep throwing Leica a bone on every product they put out the door and still has some nagging issue and say it is okay. That does NOT help them make better product when you say it's okay we will buy it anyway. That attitude does not help this industry or any industry for that matter. Having customers worrying about if there sensor is going to crack now, do you really think that is a good thing for customer satisfaction. Sorry I would not be blaming Dalsa if my Phase sensor broke, I would be right up side someones arch at Phase. This is OUR money. Would you just let 100 dollar mistake in your banks favor happen without saying something. Than wait 10 days for it to be put back.
 

charlesphoto

New member
LOL
I used to carry two M8s and a total of four lenses in a small bag.
On one trip to Prague I ended up coming home with four lenses, one of which was jammed, one M8 with a self-destructed shutter and one that acted as much like a brick as a camera.
They were easy to carry for sure, but I ended up buying a Panasonic something or other from a Prague camera store just so I would have SOMETHING to shoot with.
For me, as much as I love shooting Leicas (and film Leicas led me to digital Leicas) a combination of frustrations since I was not about to bring four bodies with me on trips and focusing issues made me hang up my Leica sneakers.
I am a much happier shooter with medium format both for landscape and studio and a GH2 for carry-about.
I get great service great IQ and I never need to print street very big.
So far all my in the field camera failures have been user-induced. I totally forgive the camera makers issues caused by my clumsiness.
-bob
I hear ya about the M8. Though I did spend a month in Europe with one body and four lenses (film body along as back up just in case) with nary a problem. Of course this body had already been back to Leica 3-4 times so I would hope it functioned alright.:p

So far M9 a okay though it should go back sometime for a rf adjustment and general go over before Nov. Thing is finding a window I can be part with it...
 

bradhusick

Active member
I guess Leicas are like Jaguars... you have to buy two because one of them will be in the shop on any given day.

Guy, you're right, but I can't bring myself to jump into MF because I like doing street stuff and MF doesn't lend itself to this kind of mobility and run-and-gun style. I have a couple Canon bodies and they're great for my sports work, but again, not for street or portraits. The micro 4/3 and APS-C cameras just can't compete with the image quality of the M9. So I guess I am stuck unless there's a camera out there I don't know about.
 

docmoore

Subscriber and Workshop Member
I guess Leicas are like Jaguars... you have to buy two because one of them will be in the shop on any given day.

Guy, you're right, but I can't bring myself to jump into MF because I like doing street stuff and MF doesn't lend itself to this kind of mobility and run-and-gun style. So I guess I am stuck unless there's a camera out there I don't know about.
Alpa TC with any decent back...Phase 20 etc etc.

Smokes any 35mm format and downright bullet proof.

Bob
 

D&A

Well-known member
I may be mistaken, but I thought when Leica first made their public statement and acknowledgement of the cracked sensor issue ( and said they would take care of any M9 that exhibited it)....they also mentioned that they subjected M9's constructed during the same time frame to thermal and physical shock and all kinds of stress tests and couldn't induce a single senors cover glass to crack this way. Assuming this is true (and its just an assumption), then how could they have uncovered this potential problem prior to it happening and getiing into the hands of users? I think to this day Leica isn't exactly sure why this happened to the 1st releases of this camera unless they are holding it "close to the vest". Even if they do know, if it can't be induced by their stress tests, then it puts them in a quandry to be both responsible for this happening yet no way for them to have done anything in preproduction, in order to have identified a issue and the avoid it. Just some thoughts.

Dave (D&A)
 

250swb

Member
I may be mistaken, but I thought when Leica first made their public statement and acknowledgement of the cracked sensor issue ( and said they would take care of any M9 that exhibited it)....they also mentioned that they subjected M9's constructed during the same time frame to thermal and physical shock and all kinds of stress tests and couldn't induce a single senors cover glass to crack this way. Assuming this is true (and its just an assumption), then how could they have uncovered this potential problem prior to it happening and getiing into the hands of users? I think to this day Leica isn't exactly sure why this happened to the 1st releases of this camera unless they are holding it "close to the vest". Even if they do know, if it can't be induced by their stress tests, then it puts them in a quandry to be both responsible for this happening yet no way for them to have done anything in preproduction, in order to have identified a issue and the avoid it. Just some thoughts.

Dave (D&A)
Absolutely right. Leica have tried to induce the failure and can't. They have gone over all the things they can think of, and I'm just guessing here, but I imagine they have more experience designing cameras than anybody else here?

But it may be worth putting the cracked sensor thing into some sort of perspective. It looks like no more than 40 cameras are affected by it (presumably Leica have batch information on sensors they used within a timescale). So its not 'the IR thing' all over again (which is why I didn't buy an M8), and its not endemic failure (although its a PITA if it happens to you). So out of many thousands of cameras built its a tiny proportion and even the most biased statistician would have a hard job reading overall doom and gloom into it.

Steve
 

glenerrolrd

Workshop Member
Just to keep some perspective..I have had 9 digital M bodies. Three of each model. I always use 2 bodies to shoot. This is my main system and I shoot about 15K captures per year. Typically on Street Shooting trips of one to two weeks.

Out of the 9 bodies ....8 have had quality related service trips including sensor glass,LCD coffee stain,sensor lines. Had one right out of the box with a decent size scratch on the metal. So many range finder calibration problems that I had DAG duplicate a chrome 50 sum micron reference lens for testing.

I cut Leica some slack on the design issues because they have maintained focus on producing the best. With low volume they will have issues with new products that push the limits of their production and their supply chain.

Service repairs and customer service in my experience are a real downside. To anyone that ever worked in the electronics industry the solutions are obvious. Leica isn t interested for exactly the reasons you mention..how could anyone comment on building a camera. The best example to look at is Porsche. Worst to first in vehicle reliability after they hired the Nisson engineers to consult with them on flow manufacturing and quality control. Leica doesn t have to change and they won t .

I have learned to create my own back ups ,use DAG for repairs that should be free and send stuff directly to Solms at my cost. I have never had a break down that cost me important lost opportunities.

The M9 system with the new glass and the improvements in LR3 is so good. I can t imagine switching to another alternative for Street Shooting.
 

jonoslack

Active member
LOL
I can't do that reliably with rangefinders either unless I zone focus; which is what you might do with the Apla.
-bob
What's an Apla? Bob - seems you have a QA issue too :ROTFL:

I'm not going to defend Leica here, no excuses. Still, I was in Solms last month, it's very VERY clear that they are aware of these issues - after all, it's not cheap to replace sensors, or indeed to collect and return lenses which don't focus properly.

As I understand it they are really focusing on this at present.

I think there is a popular illusion that Leica QA used to be much better a few years ago - in my humble opinion the opposite is the case - that bringing out a digital camera made it easy for people to see faults, and that the internet made it easy for us to tell each other about them.

Anyway, a large proportion of kit sold in the 80's and 90's sat largely unused in cupboards and drawers, and lots of others were only used for a few rolls of film each year . . . . Add to this that there wasn't an internet for us all to compare notes on problems.

I've had problems with one M9, and also with a couple of lenses. In each case they've responded really well, and it's been fixed properly.

. . . . . . Unlike my Audi A5 cab, which, in one year, has broken down, had hood components replaced, and been back to the garage on at least 6 occasions to fail to cure a bad rattle in one of the doors. The AMI system doesn't work since they did a software 'upgrade'. It's taken an email to an audi UK director to get any kind of action

. . . . . . My Pentax K5 has sensor stains - it apparently also has a problem focusing in tungsten light, and will need to go back at some point for repair. I had 3 copies of the 16-50 lens, all of which had decentered elements, I gave up on getting a good one.

. . . . . . In my years shooting with Nikon I sent back at least 5 lenses for focusing issues and soft corners.

As I say, I'm not trying to excuse Leica, but in my experience they are just as good / bad as other expensive equipment I've bought over the years, but they are considerably better at responding than many.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
I guess Leicas are like Jaguars... you have to buy two because one of them will be in the shop on any given day.

Guy, you're right, but I can't bring myself to jump into MF because I like doing street stuff and MF doesn't lend itself to this kind of mobility and run-and-gun style. I have a couple Canon bodies and they're great for my sports work, but again, not for street or portraits. The micro 4/3 and APS-C cameras just can't compete with the image quality of the M9. So I guess I am stuck unless there's a camera out there I don't know about.
Oh no was not suggesting MF at all and totally understand the need for street shooting with something like a M9 which i like very much myself but my real point here is what Rodger just illustrated with 8 our of 9 gone south at some point. My M8's spent more time in Germany than with me , luckily I had loaners . Not everyone got as lucky as I did. But I see Rodgers situation as very sad quality control and seems like every system in digital Leica has put forth some issues has arose. I understand some things go south but that consistency of every model makes one wonder. That alone puts out a question mark which no one no matter how much you love Leica's which I do myself makes you really think about your purchase and not just one but a backup as well.
 

Bob

Administrator
Staff member
What's an Apla? Bob - seems you have a QA issue too :ROTFL:
Could it be because I am lesdictic?

I commend them for their efforts, it is just that climbing the digital hill seems to have been a tougher task than they anticipated or were prepared for.

I am hoping for an M10 that nails down all the loose bits :rolleyes:
-bob
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Jono I agree they respond well in todays world but it would be nice to buy and forget about it as well. Instead of worrying given the track record. They need to get back to instilling confidence in there user base. I think everyone can agree to that. I really hope they do as i still want a M system at some point again.
 

jonoslack

Active member
Could it be because I am lesdictic?

I commend them for their efforts, it is just that climbing the digital hill seems to have been a tougher task than they anticipated or were prepared for.
I quite agree - I think the M8 was a pretty dramatic shock for them. I guess the funds to do a major makeover weren't really there until after the release of the M9 either.

I really did get the impression that it was top priority for them. They are (I think quite rightly) very proud of the distance they have travelled since the M8; getting issues of QA and production hold ups obviously do matter to them.

I am hoping for an M10 that nails down all the loose bits :rolleyes:
-bob
Do you really think that NAILS are the answer? :)

Guy - I quite agree - buy and forget would be great, but I'm afraid there don't seem to be many things that qualify for that accolade.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
For me it would be a second or third system so buying 2 would be out of the question but I would love a M9 and 3 lenses to travel with. Someday i may get to retire and a M system would be perfect. Than again the real question is will I ever even get a chance to retire. LOL
 

jonoslack

Active member
For me it would be a second or third system so buying 2 would be out of the question but I would love a M9 and 3 lenses to travel with. Someday i may get to retire and a M system would be perfect. Than again the real question is will I ever even get a chance to retire. LOL
You and me both mate (chance to retire), I suppose it would help if we didn't keep spending small fortunes on kit!

I have two bodies - just like I had two M8s. Like I said, I have had issues with one M9 body, and also with one M8 body. But in 100,000 between the four cameras, I have never been let down during a shoot - and to be honest, I wouldn't do ANY shoot without backup cameras, however reliable they might be. (I wouldn't even do a holiday without a backup camera!).
 

glenerrolrd

Workshop Member
Two dimensions you might consider in evaluating Leica service on the M cameras.

1. Rangefinder/lens calibration occurs because the fast glass is at the limits of the RF system. The more you push it (Noctilux wide open) , legacy lenses (before 6 bit) and the more lenses you have ..the harder it is to maintain perfect calibration of an entire system. This should work perfect with a new body and a new lens but the claims that every lens in a kit is perfect just don t match my experience. Aside from the new glass I assume that this is more like maintenance.

2. In the USA if you have a warranty claim you have to send it to NJ . If it has to go to Solms you lose and entire month in cross shipping and customs..2 weeks each way. During this period its almost impossible to track the progress and return shipping frequently ends up on your door step . They often turn the repair around in 10 days which I consider reasonable but its normally 4-6 weeks for anything and thats warranty work. A repair like a CLA often takes another 2-3 months. Talking to customer service is worse than a waste of time . Nice people that listen but rarely do anything .

There are of course the normal random acts of exceptional and terrible service...that can be used as examples ....but if you throw out the best and the worst this has been my experience.
 
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