Bye Bye M8

[woodyspedden]

Well

i came to Ashland Oregon for the Shakespeare Summer Festival and to get some images of Crater Lake. First day out I was taking a few normal images and the shutter went belly up. One blade totally toasted.

So back to Solms for a warranty repair. I figure that I got almost two years out of this one and when the new one goes up in smoke, which it apparently will, then I will get one of the new shutters at my cost but with a new one year warranty.

This stuff needs a recall! JMHO

Woody

 

[Hacker]

What is the number of actuations that you reckoned has been put through its paces?

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Not good news Woody, sorry to hear this.

 

[Mark Gowin]

I'm sorry to hear this Woody. That is a bad break (pun intended). At least it is still under warranty and you have plenty of other gear to shoot.

 

[Theo]

i came to Ashland Oregon for the Shakespeare Summer Festival and to get some images of Crater Lake. First day out I was taking a few normal images and the shutter went belly up. One blade totally toasted.

So back to Solms for a warranty repair. I figure that I got almost two years out of this one and when the new one goes up in smoke, which it apparently will, then I will get one of the new shutters at my cost but with a new one year warranty.

This stuff needs a recall! JMHO

Woody

That's really bad news, sorry to hear it!
I left LEICA behind, after many years and made the jump to SINAR and MF format, partly due to the lousy reputation of the M8. The Internet is filled with horror stories like this, and it remains totally, completely unacceptable and indefensible in my personal view.

MAYBE I will someday think about rangefinders again if a decent M9 ever sees the light of day. That already says something about how much respect I still have for LEICA. But that respsect is no more than a remnant.

What I do find most peculiar is the fact that the English language sites are filled with LEICA horror stories, whilst the German language ones have almost none.

Is this a nationalistic thing, or are there better LEICA's being sold, quietly upgraded, to the German public at large? It is very strange; perhaps the German speakers here can correct my view on this?

As to LEICA: keep your glass, buy a scanner and go back to film. It is easily available, and gives fantastic results. And wait, and pray that LEICA will wake up and get their act together.

I really hope that the cooperation with Jenoptik/SINAR will deliver a much improved product in future!
Cheers,
Theo

 

[atanabe]

Woody,
I am sad to hear that your shutter failed. Seems like a frequent happening on this and the LUF.
This is not the durability that I am accustomed to with Leica or any major brand. I used to carry around my M6 as a back up camera for years as this was my "bullet proof" camera that I could depend on when all else failed, including thermo nuclear destruction. Where has the over engineered quality gone? I would hope that Leica would extend the warranty on your new shutter for an additional year.
Regards,
Al

 

[glenerrolrd]

Woody Sorry to hear about the shutter. I must have been lucky...I have 3 M8 s ,an extra purely for backup. Had major issues getting them calibrated ..but no sudden death syndrome, sensor issues or shutter problems. I am at about 10K on each camera . I agree that leica must know about these failures..what I still don t get is why they wouldn t just introduce an improved shutter into the new production. Used to be SOP for the german companies that continuous improvements would be introduced as available to refine the product?

 

[jonoslack]

Woody,
I am sad to hear that your shutter failed. Seems like a frequent happening on this and the LUF.
This is not the durability that I am accustomed to with Leica or any major brand. I used to carry around my M6 as a back up camera for years as this was my "bullet proof" camera that I could depend on when all else failed, including thermo nuclear destruction. Where has the over engineered quality gone? I would hope that Leica would extend the warranty on your new shutter for an additional year.
Regards,
Al

Hi Woody
I'm sorry to hear about your shutter - any idea of how many actuations?

Hi Al
If you were using the M6 as a backup camera for years, how many rolls of film do you think went through it each month.

I only ask, as I'm really aware of how much use modern digital cameras actually get - you only have to look at the condition of most secondhand leicas to realise this: they are almost all in mint condition - my M8 is only 18 months old, and already there are obvious signs of use - not that its bashed, but simply with a worn finish from holding.

Lots of people shoot the equivalent of 30 or 40 rolls of film a month (I know I do). This isn't something that was common in the days before digital (of course, pro's did . . . . but probably not with a Leica M).

I'm not excusing Leica, but I'm betting that the shutters of the M8 see a lot more action than those of any Leica for many years.

 

[atanabe]

Jono,
I am used to cameras working not failing within a short period of time. My M6 dates back to 1986 and I would guess about 100,000+ actuations. When I shot professionally, I would run through about 10-15 rolls of film through my Nikon Fs, F2s and F3s everyday 5 days a week and never had a shutter fail. My original Nikon F from 1967 was still on it's original shutter when I sold it in 1988 albeit CLA'd every year by NPS.

My point is that a company known for it's quality and durability (ads such as Ms on Mt Everest come to mind) should be ashamed of shutters that fail so quickly. I still love my M8 for the size and image quality, just upsetting to see all of the problems that this model has faced in the past years.

Regards,
Al

 

[jonoslack]

My point is that a company known for it's quality and durability (ads such as Ms on Mt Everest come to mind) should be ashamed of shutters that fail so quickly. I still love my M8 for the size and image quality, just upsetting to see all of the problems that this model has faced in the past years.

Regards,
Al

Al
My M8 dates back to 2007 and certainly has 60,000 actuations
My point is twofold:
1. these cameras are having a huge amount more actuations than their predecessors (at least since the sixties)

2. every failure is faithfully recorded on the internet .... nobody says 'hey, i've just finished 100,000 actuations on my M8 without problem'. I've had cameras with failed shutters (Contax and Nikon) - no big deal, you get it fixed, in those days there was nobody to commiserate with on the internet.

I don't know whether the shutter on the M8 is more prone to failure, but I'm certain that enough has changed to make it very very difficult to make valid comparisons with past cameras.

I return to my point about row after row of pristine, mint condition (absolutely reliable) film leicas which line the shelves of secondhand shops.

My point is that a company known for it's quality and durability (ads such as Ms on Mt Everest come to mind) should be ashamed of shutters that fail so quickly. I still love my M8 for the size and image quality, just upsetting to see all of the problems that this model has faced in the past years.
Al

My real point is that your assumption that this didn't happen to previous Ms under the same kind of workload cannot be based on fact, but only on disappointed assumption

 

[Bob]

If film Leicas were absolutely reliable, then I suppose that the company set up its repair depots "just in case".
In absolute terms, I have had more failures with other cameras than with my M8s, but Leica gave me the impression early on, of a "Keystone Cops" movie. The good news IMO is that there is some evidence that this is improving. Fundementally, the film camera side of the operation, which included their lens department and repair depots, were woefully unprepared and did not anticipate the operational difficulties imposed by the tighter tolerances required by digital sensors and an unforgiving pixel-peeping universe.
I think that in the totality of my experience with the M8, that it is still my favorite camera to sling over my shoulder when just going about.
-bob

 

[woodyspedden]

Hey everyone

Point 1, I have less than 10K actuations on this body. This was my second body bought in February of 2007. The first body, from the first batch into the USA never had a problem and when I sold it to TEB New York still worked flawlessly.

Point 2 I don't think my comments were aimed at bashing leica. My story is what it is, but if you are part of both this forum and the LUf you know that dead shutters are a fact of life with the M8. Just read the threads about the new shutters to see the sarcasm as to whether Leica offered that upgrade to have users finance the shutter replacement program.

I think the M8 is a product without which my photography would be diminished. But the Leica company has made some serious blunders with this product and no amount of apologists for them can change that.

JMHO and as always YMMV

Woody

 

[Theo]

Hey everyone

Point 1, I have less than 10K actuations on this body. This was my second body bought in February of 2007. The first body, from the first batch into the USA never had a problem and when I sold it to TEB New York still worked flawlessly.

.....but if you are part of both this forum and the LUf you know that dead shutters are a fact of life with the M8. Just read the threads about the new shutters to see the sarcasm as to whether Leica offered that upgrade to have users finance the shutter replacement program.

I think the M8 is a product without which my photography would be diminished. But the Leica company has made some serious blunders with this product and no amount of apologists for them can change that.

JMHO and as always YMMV

Woody

AMEN TO THAT !

 

[atanabe]

Jono,
I agree with you that the internet has brought a whole new light on isolated problems with cameras. It is a great place to share ideas and hear about new things and it does magnify isolated problems. The number of posts regarding shutters has me wondering about the QC put into these cameras in comparison to the older mechanical cameras that they made. Have I seen shutter failures on other Ms? Yes, on an M7, it was a dealer's demo camera and the curtains just "blew up".

Disappointment, yes, bashing, no, I hope this did not come across as such. Just my observation regarding the frequency of the posts no more no less. I DO LOVE MY M8 don't get me wrong, nothing beats the quality of images and the small form factor. It fits my needs for photography and saves my back and shoulders!

Everything has a finite lifespan, electronic components, memory cards, shutters and lens. One would hope that a major component like a shutter last at least 100,000 cycles.

I agree with Woody that there were serious blunders with the product and how they tried to fix the problem. Time will tell if they can keep up in the digital camera age.

Regards,
Al

 

[s.agar]

Despite writing most of the unpleasant messages about M8 in various forums, I just can't agree with you.

There are not many horror stories anywhere. It's just that expectations are much more from a company like Leica. Otherwise all companies have faulty products to some extent, and that's why they have servicing stations. leica is no exception.

I only can blame Leica for faulty rangefinder adjustments, which could have been avoided, because that's more of a workmanship fault rather than anything serious, but has eventually affected many users. I still can't understand the reason for that. Many people has become experts in aligning the cameras, instead of being away from them during the turnaround time.

Other than that, everything has been settled down. Users are very happy in general. Last week I have lended a D300 user my M8 with the Tri Elmar, and now he's after buying one. He was not trusting his eyes, but have seen that it's no problem at all.

This camera is just great in many ways. There's also no alternative at present. Scanning 35mm film does not give the same results (at least with my Nikon 9000ED). MF film and scanning may be more appropriate for your IMO.

Seyhun

What I do find most peculiar is the fact that the English language sites are filled with LEICA horror stories, whilst the German language ones have almost none.

Is this a nationalistic thing, or are there better LEICA's being sold, quietly upgraded, to the German public at large? It is very strange; perhaps the German speakers here can correct my view on this?
Cheers,
Theo

 

[jonoslack]

Have I seen shutter failures on other Ms? Yes, on an M7, it was a dealer's demo camera and the curtains just "blew up".

Disappointment, yes, bashing, no, I hope this did not come across as such. Just my observation regarding the frequency of the posts no more no less. I DO LOVE MY M8 don't get me wrong, nothing beats the quality of images and the small form factor. It fits my needs for photography and saves my back and shoulders!

HI Al
I think you missed my points, which were that M8's, on average, are being used a great deal more than other M cameras, and that any problem is being reported on the net (which was NOT the case with previous cameras).

I don't KNOW this, but the point is that you don't KNOW that they're worse either. The evidence of posts on the net really does't PROVE anything (because there is no base reference, and no such publicity for previous cameras).

Only Leica could tell us that.

 

[irakly]

very good point jono. statistics is an insidious science

 

[glenerrolrd]

The facts seem to support he fact that the M8 has had a lot of problems and that its pretty darn frustrating to get these resolved . .................................................................................................................................................................. . Can there be any doubt that the camera was rushed to market and the initial batch was very problematic. The UV/IR fiasco,the sudden death syndrome and the calibration nightmare are all well documented. .................................. . . The shutter issues come up less frequently but you really have to wonder about the shutter replacement strategy..nice way to establish the price to fix a weakness in the existing camera base.(and manage then warranty overhang). I wish Leica would have just phased the new shutter in as a continuous improvement. I can think of no reason why it should cost more to get it right. ................................................... . So my point of view is that we need to keep these issues out there until they are corrected. I am glad Woody posted his experience. I know maybe 15-20 M8 users well enough to have talked in person with them about various issues . At least 50% of these users have had an M8 service issue. Thats good enough for me .......................... . .With that said the M8 is my camera . I have a D3 and a r9/dmr with more lenses than i can carry but I really use the M8 . So for me its worth it to have 3 bodies with one in reserve. I should also report that after 10K each on the first two M8s ..they have been exceptionally reliable ...just tough to calibrate. ................... .......................... . Maybe Woody will be lucky and Leica will turn his camera around in a month..so that he can report that the problem is forgotten.

 

[Robert Campbell]

Al
My M8 dates back to 2007 and certainly has 60,000 actuations
My point is twofold:
1. these cameras are having a huge amount more actuations than their predecessors (at least since the sixties)

2. every failure is faithfully recorded on the internet ....

Jono,
I agree with you completely; your stats for the M8 suggest over 100 pix per day with it, or 1650 rolls of film...no one bar a pro ever shot this quantity before digital...and you do have several other cameras!

But - and this is a bit OT - is this vast quantity of pix better than before, or just more?

 

[jonoslack]

Jono,
I agree with you completely; your stats for the M8 suggest over 100 pix per day with it, or 1650 rolls of film...no one bar a pro ever shot this quantity before digital...and you do have several other cameras!

But - and this is a bit OT - is this vast quantity of pix better than before, or just more?