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M10 - any news?
- Thread starter edmund
- Start date
ptomsu
Workshop Member
Not sure when the M10 will come. Looks like Leica is still selling the M9 so well, that they do not care about a new model or even an upgrade. I would estimate not before PK 2012.
Also the Kodak chips next generation are slowly arriving at the market (36MP FF if I am right). That would make sense of course for an M10 IMHO.
Also the Kodak chips next generation are slowly arriving at the market (36MP FF if I am right). That would make sense of course for an M10 IMHO.
The only Kodak chip I see on their site is the full-frame 5.5 micron KAI-29050, 28.8 MP, 6576 x 4384. It has a new filter pattern though, and according to random internet posters might trade some IQ for increased sensitivity. Are there other sensors not listed on their site?
The 35MP+ M10 is what I both crave and fear; fear because of what it'll do to the value of my S2 kit...
The 35MP+ M10 is what I both crave and fear; fear because of what it'll do to the value of my S2 kit...
mjm6
Member
Not unless Leica changes from CCD to CMOS... Which could happen in the next M camera, I suppose.
ptomsu
Workshop Member
Maybe I am wrong with the 36MP, but actually I heard from one of my Leica dealers that this beast would be available soon - not sure if only a rumor
Anyway, what we will see for sure in an M10 is another significant increase of resolution - I do not care if below or above 30MP, it is enough anyway.
What you say right is that if resolution comes in the range of 30+ MP, then the S2 and all other 40MP MFD solutions are getting into a tight area, especially if you consider the portability and weight of a Leica M and lenses.
I for myself decided to wait till an M10 and skip the M9 as it still does not bring all what I expected - but hey, it is a great camera!
What would be even more important than highest MP count is good high ISO. Or a high MP number and something like pixel binning as done by Phase in some of their MFD backs in order to get clear and noise free high ISO.
And what I would like to see as well is a hybrid VF like in the Fuji X100 - but for sure in Leica quality
Hope not.Maybe I am wrong with the 36MP, but actually I heard from one of my Leica dealers that this beast would be available soon - not sure if only a rumor
Anyway, what we will see for sure in an M10 is another significant increase of resolution - I do not care if below or above 30MP, it is enough anyway.
What you say right is that if resolution comes in the range of 30+ MP, then the S2 and all other 40MP MFD solutions are getting into a tight area, especially if you consider the portability and weight of a Leica M and lenses.
I for myself decided to wait till an M10 and skip the M9 as it still does not bring all what I expected - but hey, it is a great camera!
What would be even more important than highest MP count is good high ISO. Or a high MP number and something like pixel binning as done by Phase in some of their MFD backs in order to get clear and noise free high ISO.
And what I would like to see as well is a hybrid VF like in the Fuji X100 - but for sure in Leica quality
-Marc
More megs at the expense of IQ? If so, I'll skip the M10.
Not sure I grasp how this would effect the S2 ... an AF DSLR with a larger sized sensor than any 35mm, and provides for telephoto, macro and eventually zoom optics.
Instead of racing off to the next thing, it'd be nice if Leica did further tweaks to what's already there. Firmware is free, a M10 won't be.
-Marc
dannh
Member
Have to agree with you there, I'm still wrestling with red edge with the M9/18mm Super elmar combo. Their most recent response was "known issue, wait for FW update". I thought that the last FW update was supposed to fix it. Sigh.
It's good for them that I still love, love, love exploring photography with this camera!
Edit:
I just checked and Leica officially never said anything about fixing red edge in the last firmware. My frustration still stands, but didn't want to badmouth them for something they haven't claimed to fix yet. Having said that, the M9 has been around for long enough that there's no excuse for not having a fix.
It's good for them that I still love, love, love exploring photography with this camera!
Edit:
I just checked and Leica officially never said anything about fixing red edge in the last firmware. My frustration still stands, but didn't want to badmouth them for something they haven't claimed to fix yet. Having said that, the M9 has been around for long enough that there's no excuse for not having a fix.
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I have to say the main serious room for improvement I see is the focusing "thing". I start to believe that the technically necessary tolerances needed for reliability are hard to achieve, with higher resolution even higher.
And maybe some weather protection. Everything else the M9 seem jusr right to me.
And maybe some weather protection. Everything else the M9 seem jusr right to me.
It depends on why people got into the S2 and the other 40MP MF cameras. I suspect that a decent number of them were looking mainly for higher res and excellent optics, not necessarily AF, macro or other things MF provides. A 35MP+ M10, and especially a Nikon with their updated lenses would provide much (but not all) of what an S2 offers in IQ at half-ish the weight and cost. There are lots of variables and it's not apples-to-apples, I know, but $40k+ for a full 40MP system will look expensive when a 35MP system in 35mm format can be had for much less. Especially if that 35mm system can travel with you easily and focus in low-contrast situations.
I think there may also be a trend in seeing 40MP as being enough to print at sizes that most people need or want. Advances in sensor tech *could* also make the overall IQ close to what we're getting today in MF...or they could focus on higher ISO and leave MF alone in the low-ISO IQ dept.
Regardless, I'll be in line for an S3 as I saw what 60MP can do in the H4D and I like it! My issues with the M9 (moire of various forms) can't be fixed in firmware, so although I love the M9, I'm eager for higher res.
Yes, unless changes like back-illumination, microlenses, or color-filter patterns can offset resolution increases. I'm not saying those are necessarily applicable to a potential M10 sensor, but detector size isn't the only variable.
I really don't know much about sensors, but the one I quoted is optimized for video applications and happens to be 35mm format. It's a KAI model, not a KAF (Full-frame reading) like those currently in the M9, S2 and other MF systems. That might just mean it's not intended for a consumer camera but the press releases I saw about seemed to indicate that it could be. Someone else can probably enlighten me/us.
-Travis
There are some things I question:
Are the Leica M and Nikon (or Canon or Sony) lenses of "35mm" lenses are really up to such 30+MP resolution?
Is the rangefinder focusing up to it?
Will Nikon improve the low ISO IQ that i comes close to that of the CCD MF sensors?
For me lens quality (for example contrast and sharpness wide open, OOF renderung,...) and the "look" of the current CCD sensors vs the current cmos sensors are more important factor than a few MP more or less.
That's been the on-going argument about 35mm verses MFD for years. And still, the 22 meg backs IQ/tonal gradations outperformed 25 meg DSLRs even with updated Nano-coated optics on my D3X (at least in every test I tried in order to eliminate the expense of MFD)... and I suspect that'll remain true, depending on one's degree of need/final use. The larger sensor has not been superseded by some other form of technology yet ... and as long as it is CMOS/AA filters verses CCD I doubt it will.
Meg count without the factor of sensor size is an incomplete story. For me the S2 is there ... not going to be there, maybe be there, or could be there. Pretty much a 35mm DSLR replacement for most applications I need ... horses for courses.
Something looking expensive is relative. If you already have a 40 meg MFD, it doesn't matter much then. You just use it and make photographs. Worrying about what may be coming, could be coming, doesn't help make photographs now.
That said, I also have a H4D/60 big horse for the courses that require it ... :ROTFL:
-Marc
+1!
The addition of focus confirmation would tempt me to trade at least one M9 ... but as it involves some sort of electronic component, I'd wait at least a year after it was introduced ... so anything I'm interested in a M digital camera is at least years off in the future ... meanwhile ...
-Marc
I don't know the definitive answer to this, but Nikon's latest lenses are "ready" for whatever sensors they'll put out for the next 3 years. I have to imagine they'll exceed 30MP in that time. What "ready" means is pretty subjective of course, and I'd bet I'll stick to Leica S. As for M lenses, I know there's room left to pull out more detail, but not sure how much.
Good question, and again I don't know. If not, and if all I get is less moire and the same apparent sharpness, I'm OK with that.
Agreed, but I think the gap in IQ will narrow assuming people don't need more than 40ish MP. It won't narrow enough for a lot of us to jump ship soon, but a lot of people will I'd think.
Very interesting everyone --- sounds like it will be a while until they release one.
My guess is that it will at least have the LED brightlines seen in the M9T.
Are there a lot of structural changes that are needed to put in a higher MP sensor?
If not, Im hoping Leica allows us to "upgrade" the sensor on the M9s ---- I think these cameras are at a price point too high to adopt the Apple business model of introduce new technology/chips each year --- of course, if you wanted new LED framelines/etc you'd need to buy a new body... but the sensor should be able to be swapped out no?
My guess is that it will at least have the LED brightlines seen in the M9T.
Are there a lot of structural changes that are needed to put in a higher MP sensor?
If not, Im hoping Leica allows us to "upgrade" the sensor on the M9s ---- I think these cameras are at a price point too high to adopt the Apple business model of introduce new technology/chips each year --- of course, if you wanted new LED framelines/etc you'd need to buy a new body... but the sensor should be able to be swapped out no?