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M8 Nightmare

codocee

Member
I thought I dodged it. I purchased a low mile M8 about 3 months ago that did not exhibit the vertical line. I was messin with a Summitar last night and had read about under exposing that particular lens by1.3 stops. Well, when I reviewed the images, guess what. 640 and 1250, plain as day and horrified. My question is twofold:
Can New Jersey successfully remap the sensor and who has had it done and most importantly, how much?
Would love for Leica to acknowledge the issue and step up but I get a sneakin hunch it ain't gonna happen. Camera has less than 5000 actuations.
I have parked a bunch of DSLR gear in favor of the rangefinder experience, and in particular my M8, but I don't have a ton of money to put into this camera. I don't want to even think about shutter or complete sensor at some point.
I'm bummed folks, I was hoping for the best.:cry:
 

codocee

Member
Ashwin,
Thanks for the help...much appreciated. I just want it to work. I love the camera and whole experience.
 

ptomsu

Workshop Member
Well, I got rid of my M8 more than 2 years ago since I had numerous issues. I am now sitting on a on of M glass and wait for the M10, because I still do not trust the M9.

Once credibility is lost it is lost forever or at least for some long time! Leica has to prove to me first that I can trust their M-digital cameras again.

BTW - also service sucked really bad here in Europe while I was owning and maintaining my M8 !!!!!
 

Paratom

Well-known member
Well, I got rid of my M8 more than 2 years ago since I had numerous issues. I am now sitting on a on of M glass and wait for the M10, because I still do not trust the M9.

Once credibility is lost it is lost forever or at least for some long time! Leica has to prove to me first that I can trust their M-digital cameras again.

BTW - also service sucked really bad here in Europe while I was owning and maintaining my M8 !!!!!
I have had 2 M8s and now own an M9.
I can not say that I find the Leicas to be less reliable than other cameras.
The service response is better than what I am used from other brands.

Its hard and I can feel with someone who buys a used M8 and has a problem with it now.
However I believe that could happen with everycamera which is out of warranty.

I would send the camera in and talk to them what can be done and how much it costs. Everything else is pure speculation.
Even if you pay 1000 $ for repair you will have paid overall 1000$ less compared to having bought the camera when it was new.
Buying used saves money but therefore accepting some risk for deffects and to not have warranty.
 

glenerrolrd

Workshop Member
Its about a $1200 repair and they will charge you for it. I had a M8 demo that I upgraded to the M8U ..its was 2 months out of warranty . I sold it to a GETdpi member . He never noticed it in 3 months . He resold it to another photographer. He immediately did the tests at 1250 because he read about the issue .

I only had about 1000 activations and essentially no use since the upgrade but the camera was handled and shipped a few times ..who knows ? We split the $1200 and each paid $400 . Leica wouldn t contribute .
 

Shashin

Well-known member
I can not say that I find the Leicas to be less reliable than other cameras.
A little unscientific test, but Google (manufacturer name) problem and to see the number of results:

Leica--3,610,000
Nikon--356,000
Canon--657,000

Considering Nikon and Canon make and ship significantly more cameras than Leica, I would say Leica has a problem. Now I understand the limits of the search, but statistically a small company like Leica should not be getting 5-10x the hits as the two largest camera manufactures. There is something up.

I had seriously considered getting a Leica as I really like rangefinders--I can be somewhat fanatic about this camera type. But each time I do research on the cameras, I find many issues with them that you cannot find with other cameras. Personally, that has been a deal breaker for me as I need confidence in my equipment. For others, the risk is worth it (and I jealously admire the results). Nothing in my searches suggests that Leica reliability is on par with other manufacturers (and I can find ways to justify camera purchases with the best gearheads).
 

Paratom

Well-known member
A little unscientific test, but Google (manufacturer name) problem and to see the number of results:

Leica--3,610,000
Nikon--356,000
Canon--657,000

Considering Nikon and Canon make and ship significantly more cameras than Leica, I would say Leica has a problem. Now I understand the limits of the search, but statistically a small company like Leica should not be getting 5-10x the hits as the two largest camera manufactures. There is something up.

I had seriously considered getting a Leica as I really like rangefinders--I can be somewhat fanatic about this camera type. But each time I do research on the cameras, I find many issues with them that you cannot find with other cameras. Personally, that has been a deal breaker for me as I need confidence in my equipment. For others, the risk is worth it (and I jealously admire the results). Nothing in my searches suggests that Leica reliability is on par with other manufacturers (and I can find ways to justify camera purchases with the best gearheads).
I have used Canon, Nikon, Pentax, Oly, Leica (and others).
My personal experience has been pretty good with Leica, very good (best of all) with Nikon (nearly no complains, except once my 24-70 didnt work any more), not so great with Canon (several problems regarding softness and AF accurancy with lenses including "pro" lenses, non consistent AF of 7d, not so great with Pentax (sensor problem with K5, then AF accurancy problem with K5, lens problems (decentered lenses, AF accurancy problems).

The only problem I had with my M-Leicas is that I had to send in cameras and lenses for focus calibration and this happens quite offen. For one reason I think the system of rangefinder is just more critical in this regard.
But regarding other issues my M6, M7, 2 M8s and M9 do really work fine.
But I dont know any official statistics and maybe I am just a lucky guy.
 

ptomsu

Workshop Member
I also used Canon, Nikon, Pentax, Sony, Olympus and Leica, well also COntax and Hasselblad!

I never had as much problems with any other brand as with Leica (both R9DMR and M8) - it was much better with film Leicas I must admit.

I never ever had issues with Nikon and Canon, Contax and Hasselblad!

I had serious issues with Olympus and also issues with Pentax.

Maybe others have (had) different experiences, but this is what I got. Over the past 40 years! With most weight of course on the last 10 years.

But I can tell you something - this will not keep me away from Leica in the future, I simply do not see that their current lineup does meet my needs. And I am aware that I will maybe run into issues again!
 

codocee

Member
Well,
I asked if anyone has had the repair and how much it cost?
So far, I get a $1200 answer from one member. All the rest are mentioning how other systems are prone as well and how they remain loyal to the brand.
I owned mostly Canon digital bodies and never had any problems. My 5D was never sent in for the free mirror fix and was never an issue. Canon's offer to fix it, free of charge, especially considering the number of units involved says something about both companies in my eyes. How about the person who sent their M8 in and Leica said: "Oh, we're very well aware of the problem and in the name of our reputation, we're going to make it right".
Anyone?
 
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codocee

Member
Lastly,
I get the feeling that my financial means are going to prevent me from being able to pursue the digital rangefinder experience. I must say, the ride was unlike anything I expected.
It felt good!
 

Paratom

Well-known member
Well,
I asked if anyone has had the repair and how much it cost?
So far, I get a $1200 answer from one member. All the rest are mentioning how other systems are prone as well and how they remain loyal to the brand.
I owned mostly Canon digital bodies and never had any problems. My 5D was never sent in for the free mirror fix and was never an issue. Canon's offer to fix it, free of charge, especially considering the number of units involved says something about both companies in my eyes. How about the person who sent their M8 in and Leica said: "Oh, we're very well aware of the problem and in the name of our reputation, we're going to make it right".
Anyone?
Why not send it in and explain that you cant afford an expensive repair and if the see any way to fix it for reasonable price or even for free? Why not give it a try?
Also if you get a repair you usually get 6 months warranty too.
 

Stuart Richardson

Active member
First of all, no offense to Roger, but you should call Leica and ask THEM what the repair cost is. And then you could also ask Leica Germany and ask THEM what it costs. Both are going to different, and one might be cheaper than the other. They may surprise you with their response. Maybe it will be an unhappy surprise, but maybe a good one! Leica has repaired a few things for me free, even though the cameras were out of warranty. It's my understanding that the sensor lines are not a "Leica only" problem, but more a CCD only problem. They are caused by cosmic rays impacting the sensor electronics and shorting them out. This sends a chain reaction down the whole line of pixels, causing the line. It is a known problem with no solution other than to map out the pixels. It is exacerbated by the age of the sensor (the older it is, the more likely to get hit), the frequency of air travel (it is hundreds of times more likely to happen at the cruising altitudes of jets), and unhappily for me, one's proximity to the north or south pole. There is a discussion of this problem in this video, though it does not start until a few minutes in: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98FZ8C6HneE
Basically, the older the CCD and the more it has traveled, the more likely you are to see the sensor line issue.
 

glenerrolrd

Workshop Member
Stuart

In my situation the camera had changed hands twice. The new owner had sent the camera into NJ and had a hard copy of a quote that indicated the sensor had to be replaced not remapped. I know most of the executive management in NJ and i asked for warranty claim which they turned down . They verified that it was a replcement required.

Obviously I could have refused to cover any of the cost. I could have pushed it at leica . But i thought contributing $400 was the fair thing to do. Leica has helped me on many issues in the past and on this one they believe they were right.

Hope the OP has better luck and Solms might be a better choice.
 

Stuart Richardson

Active member
Hi Roger, I certainly don't think you did anything wrong! I just meant that no one is going to be able to tell him what his camera repair will cost except for Leica themselves. They may have changed prices, or might decide to repair his in a different way (remapping instead of replacing etc)...the point is, who knows? Better to get it from the horse's mouth.
 

glenerrolrd

Workshop Member
Hi Roger, I certainly don't think you did anything wrong! I just meant that no one is going to be able to tell him what his camera repair will cost except for Leica themselves. They may have changed prices, or might decide to repair his in a different way (remapping instead of replacing etc)...the point is, who knows? Better to get it from the horse's mouth.
Agree 100% unfortunately you have to send it in to get an estimate ...for this one I would choose Solms .
 

Godfrey

Well-known member
My experience with Leica M cameras pre-dates the digital Ms, but I owned various II, III and M models from 1969 until 2002. The only repairs I ever needed were new shutter curtains for the IIc (somewhere in the 1970s, not bad for a late 1940s camera I bought for $50), and again for the IIf about 1980 (1950 body, I think, and again a $50 camera ... both of these with a lens!). My favorite M was an M4-P that Sherry Krauter had done a thorough CLA on prior to my buying it.

That said, only one of my Nikons ever needed any service at all and that was my fault. I had a bunch of Nikons and lenses over the years between 1969 and 2001.

None of my other cameras (Olympus, Minolta, Sony, Hasselblad, Fuji, Zeiss Ikon, Contax, Rolleiflex, Canon, Pentax ... amongst others) ever needed service either unless I broke them, and I knew exactly when and how I broke them in every case. Not many of those.

But all this is besides the point. If your M8 has a problem and you like the camera enough to repair it, call Leica, get an estimate, and send it in. I believe the issue you're referring to is pretty well known ... and you bought the M8 anyway.

If you're in over your head with the Leica M8 financially, well, you should probably consider that it isn't the right time for you to consider it your primary camera. Plenty of other cameras do a superb job of making photos too, the Leica may be special but eh? who cares? Sell it, work with something else until you can afford it more easily. Or put it on the shelf, buy something less expensive to keep shooting with until you can afford to repair and use the Leica without being concerned about it. The important thing is to keep working on your photography, not worrying about whether you can afford to use a particular piece of equipment.

As Luigi Chinetti Jr. once told a customer who asked what the price of a Ferrari service was, "If you have to ask, you really shouldn't buy one of these cars."
 

zombii

New member
I had this happen last fall. Mine's a low mileage, early serial number M8. Sent it to Leica NJ. Cost was about $450 which included a full CLA. Took about 7 weeks. Works great now. Year warranty. Not cheap but not end of the world and the focus adjustment was worth a lot in its own right.
 

gverdon

New member
A little unscientific test, but Google (manufacturer name) problem and to see the number of results:

Leica--3,610,000
Nikon--356,000
Canon--657,000

Considering Nikon and Canon make and ship significantly more cameras than Leica, I would say Leica has a problem. Now I understand the limits of the search, but statistically a small company like Leica should not be getting 5-10x the hits as the two largest camera manufactures. There is something up.

(...)
I really love that type of "search"... FWIW, my "results" are quite different:

Leica-- 6 930 000
Nikon-- 64 200 000
Canon-- 281 000 000

:D
 
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